The All-New Down With OPP Thread

[ZombieGenesis]

I'm not going to get too into this. First, I think it's tacky to drag these things out in public. Second, the banned and their friends will not see that they did anything ban-worthy and I have no desire to be dragged into any mud-slinging or circular arguments.

What I will say is that any speculation about why any individual was banned is exactly that, speculation. I have not, and will not, state publically why any of the three individuals banned today were banned.

Each incident is unique and complex and goes beyond any single issue or encounter. They all happened because I felt they needed to happen for the health of my game and for my own mental health.

[Lithium]

@Runescryer Oh, you're that guy. That explains so much.

And yet again, I did not do the things you're accusing me of. Ok, now that I know who you are, and what your stake is in all of this...

Well.

That makes a lot more sense.

Trying to spread rumors that someone is a stalker and abuser though? That's low man.

Real low.

ETA: I didn't make any advances on Betsy, that's all in the logs too, anyone can read them. So... yeah, you've got it bad man... but seriously? This?

[Runescryer]

@Lithium Again...

Who. Outed. You. ?

Take some damn responsibilities for your own actions.

And ask anyone from that game using their MSB handles; I have been nothing but open and upfront with them about my identity, even contacting them first to give them a heads up as to my identity.

[Lithium]

@Runescryer Outed me? Nobody, I defended myself against accusations way out of left field. Now that I know what's going on it's clear this is a hit piece. And since you offered, allow me to post up our private conversation

Tony's icon Tony
Tony says, "Hey. Got a sec?"

12:35 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "Sup?"

12:37 PM
Tony's icon Tony
Tony says, "I just wanted to talk to you about the scene you had where you claimed Tonywas manufacturing anti-mutant weapons. That's not a part of the character history here or the arc I'm taking Tony in. So, I'm trying to work out a solution to that involving a minimal disruption to RP or to anyone's character interpretation."

12:38 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "It was an offhand comment about Tony being a weapons manufacturer and the anti-mutant atmosphere in general. Not a direct accusation. Like say, accusing the wrong gun manufacturer of making the AR-15."

12:39 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "I ICly have nothing against Tony, or Stark Enterprises, I even ICly got a security package for my home from them."

Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "Sorry if I somehow upset you or caused you consternation, it wasn't my intention."

12:42 PM
Tony's icon Tony
Tony says, "Okay. Just checking. Because I don't want to push you into a bad look for the character here. If you're intentionally making a false claim and are aware, that's fine."

12:43 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "Huh? Bad look? It was a comment made in private, and not a public statement."

12:44 PM
Tony's icon Tony
Tony says, "I was just trying to figure out how to salvage the situation with the minimal amount of conflict.

Sure, it was in private. But it's also starting a rumor that can spread or get back to Tony."

12:44 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "How is it starting a rumor?"

12:44 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "Because that would mean that the person he said it to, was talking about it."

12:45 PM
Tony's icon Tony
Tony says, "By claiming Tony manufactures anti-mutant weapons? At the Xaiver School? How is that not starting a rumor?"

12:46 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "Which exact scene was that said in? Who was he talking to?"

12:53 PM
Tony's icon Tony
Tony says, "Move-In Day. And it was a private scene with Jean. But it's still starting up a rumor that's going to impact RP for everyone. This isn't Tony confronting you ICly or finding ut what you said. This is an OOC conversation about how your claim can impact RP in the future. Do you think that X-folk are going to want to RP with a guy they think is making weapons specifically to hunt them down? It's going to affect how Betsy gets viewed in the Mansion because of her association with Tony. It's more than just a throw-away line, here. Do you think that Jean's not going to bring up in casual conversation that Tony's making anti-mutant weapons? Especially with Betsy around?"

12:54 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "No it will not. It was a private scene, and someone is blowing up your ass. You cannot accuse someone of something that will not happen, and you cannot accuse someone for something they have not yet done. You are fabricating a problem that does /not/ exist."

Tony's icon Tony
Tony says, "Just giving my view and opinion of the situation. How you play your character is entirely up to you. "

12:58 PM
Warren's icon Warren
Warren says, "Noted. But quit with the rumor mongering. It hasn't happened. It won't happen. And Betsy doesn't have access to everyone's thoughts, past, and omniscience."

---

Yep. I am the evils.

[tek]

@Lithium You outed yourself and turned this into a bigger drama that people will remember about you specifically rather than an anonymous gripe that would have been forgotten. Congrats I guess.

[Runescryer]

@Lithium So...to recap...

Manufacturing something from absolutely whole cloth, even in a private scene, isn't starting up the foundation of a rumor? And this isn't a 'Tony smells bad' kind of a thing. Also, I indicated I was trying to work with you to resolve this without major drama happening. This isn't the flex you think it is, my man.

I'm willing to let my archived scenes stand how they are. At no time had Tony ever been told about the Mansion, about any mutants other than Betsy, or had any secrets revealed to him.

I will cop to you talking with Harley about founding a team before I put in the event, and I apologize for that accusation. As far as I knew, I was the only one talking about assembling a team. Not even the Justice League was getting organized at that point. So, my apologies on that point.

As to the Lobo thing, Staff approached me about booting Lobo to free up space. I declined in the interest of being as fair and open as possible.

And, as for the comment that started this whole thing off... from the 'Moving Day' log, 9/16...

"Love life?" Warren asks as he reaches up to scritch at the side of Jeans head gently when she leans in close, his arm and wing, staying around her but he doesn't lean away. "I've met her twice. Once being today. I'm not sure how that is anything remotely close to a relationship. It's barely acquaintances." He shrugs a little, "It's not like she and I hooked up or anything, besides, wasn't she bragging about bagging Tony Stark? Bragging about how she exposed herself as a mutant to someone who makes weapons that are used against us? Then she rushes to the school when she should be laying low and keeping people safe if she was exposed? Then asking if you and I are a thing, right in front of Scott?" He shakes his head, then asks, "Was Scott still there?"

So, would you care to reply by pointing out the scene where Betsy was bragging about banging Tony? Would you care to point out where there were any news reports in game that exposed Betsy as going out with Tony? How is this not a potential foundation for a whisper campaign? In point of fact, Tony lied to SHIELD about the incident to cover Betsy's involvement; lying to a Federal Law Enforcement agency is sort of a crime, you know. We went out of our way to hide Betsy's involvement. If I was guilty of making assumptions, and I'll accept the jury verdict on that, you were doing the exact. Same. Thing.

Things escalated because neither of us trust the other in RP, probably RL now as well. And despite that little comment of yours, Warren's name was never mentioned by Betsy to Tony at any time. Tony's only information about mutants came from the books of Xavier and MacTaggart, in addition to the things he and Betsy talked about.

You're still trying to gaslight. And people are noticing. Maybe instead of getting upset at the reactions of other players, stop the gaslighting?

[Lithium]

@Runescryer Gaslighting? I am not attempting to gaslight anything.

Again, you are reading what you want into things to try and spin them into the direction you want them to be seen.

Congratulations.

For your information, a private scene, with one other person, is not starting a rumor unless that other person, in that private scene, goes about and starts /talking about it/ ICly to other people.

Please, share with the class, where that happened.

Just because you believe something happened in whatever delusional situation you're saying occurred, doesn't mean it actually occurred.

Accusing someone of being ultimate levels of toxic for saying something you don't agree with in a private 1 on 1 scene is actual gaslighting.

[Ghost]

@Lithium said in The All-New Down With OPP Thread:

Just because you believe something happened in whatever delusional situation you're saying occurred, doesn't mean it actually occurred.
Accusing someone of being ultimate levels of toxic for saying something you don't agree with in a private 1 on 1 scene is actual gaslighting.

Accusing someone of being delusional when they say something occurred is actually gaslighting.

Someone accusing someone else for being toxic for saying something that they don't agree with is "having a disagreement on whether or not something said was proper."

Chiding a woman for not being responsive to your flirtations is a form of negging.

[Phase Face]

THIS iteration of the generic ZombieGenesis game is going just swimmingly, clearly.

[Cobalt]

[hobos]

I saw a log where it looked like Warren was trying to hit on Betsy and Betsy was kind of rebuffing him. If I was roleplaying a female character I would hate playing with Warren. The style of approach is sleazy and gross and exactly why I hate playing female characters. I am actually viscerally repulsed. Also, lots of MUSHy metaposing from everyone, not enjoyable to read. In the background, I guess Betsy and Tony Stark are developing a friendship and Warren gets jealous (and starts ICly engaging conflict with Tony Stark, saying "oh he's a weapons manufacturer and weapons do get used against us, (so Betsy's friendship with him makes her sort of a traitor (and also I'm so jelly she likes him and not me))") and then Tony Stark's player gets wind of this and decides that an OOC confrontation under the guise of "do you really want to do this?" as an OOC threat to stop the IC conflict OOCly is a good idea.

As your resident mostly-MUD player who was banned for code abuse on a MUSH, I feel like I have to say that I perceive Runescryer's approach as almost just as gross as Lithium's roleplay towards women. Take it with salt, I guess.

What I've learned from this:

1. Sometimes it's perfectly fine for game runners to disgustedly ban everyone involved in some stupid drama and just say it's for their mental health and the health of their game. I liked ZombieGenesis' post here. It actually made me want to try out the game, but I won't because I'm probably unwelcome and also point #2.
2. I really hate the constant OOC meta of MUSH-style roleplay. It's not just a learning curve issue I have. I'm just genuinely uncomfortable about this sort of attitude and I don't think I will ever learn how to do it, let alone how to love it.

Lithium, my unsolicited advice to you is that you should do this mental exercise: whenever you roleplay with another PC, gender-switch them in your head. You really seem to be disgustingly flirting with women in a way they neither appreciate nor reciprocate. And you also do this transparently pathetic thing of competing with men. It'd probably help you to roleplay with others as people first, and not consider their gender so much. Make sure to choose an appropriate sort of character to roleplay; one who doesn't care so much about gender.

Runescryer, my unsolicited advice to you is to not argue OOCly about IC stuff. React to it ICly instead, if and when your character ever hears about it IC. That's way more interesting. I guess MUSH players really like the collaborate approach of asking someone out-of-character "do you really want the story to go this way?" and I guess, fine. Just not my preference. The surprise and excitement of getting in-character consquences for some offhand comment is way too cool. But whatever. (I heard you were requested by ZG to contact Lithium OOCly, so, I'm editing my post.) If you were really going to do the OOC questioning, and do it honestly, then you should write a short concise summary on whatever the event is, and simply ask if the other player wants to retcon it. If they don't, then say thanks and politely stop talking to them OOC.

[Ganymede]

This highlights just how old, grumpy, and oblivious to standards of RP I am.

[Runescryer]

@hobos said in The All-New Down With OPP Thread:

Runescryer, my unsolicited advice to you is to not argue OOCly about IC stuff. React to it ICly instead, if and when your character ever hears about it IC. That's way more interesting. I guess MUSH players really like the collaborate approach of asking someone out-of-character "do you really want the story to go this way?" and I guess, fine. Just not my preference. The surprise and excitement of getting in-character consquences for some offhand comment is way too cool. But whatever. (I heard you were requested by ZG to contact Lithium OOCly, so, I'm editing my post.) If you were really going to do the OOC questioning, and do it honestly, then you should write a short concise summary on whatever the event is, and simply ask if the other player wants to retcon it. If they don't, then say thanks and politely stop talking to them OOC.

Fair enough. I was asked to speak with Warren/Lithium, OOCly. And that was the only interaction I had with them.

Also, my apologies if I misgendered Lithium before. Not my intent and will mea culpa to the screw-up.

[Kassien]

This on going public debate and shouting match is exactly why people get driven away from the MU community.

[Selira]

@Tirit How, exactly, do you think accusations of someone's bad behavior should be handled, as a community, then? Literally every community has some version of this -- grievances are redressed, the cause and scope of the grievances reviewed, and bad actors punished. Usually, it's public for very good reason.

[Runescryer]

@Selira said in The All-New Down With OPP Thread:

@Tirit How, exactly, do you think accusations of someone's bad behavior should be handled, as a community, then? Literally every community has some version of this -- grievances are redressed, the cause and scope of the grievances reviewed, and bad actors punished. Usually, it's public for very good reason.

So. Your option is that the title should have been '@Cinder Is A Creeper'? Just with no regard to if they're actually innocent or not? How is that any better than what I did? I'm accepting @ZombieGenesis'sdecision that the IP doesn't match up to his records, but there are things like free VPNs to hide your real IP, you know. Again, I accept and abide by the results of ZG's investigation.

Was my headline over-dramatic? Again, I'll accept the jury verdict on that. Was I trying to protect the identity of the accused and the game while the investigation takes it's course? Absolutely, although I understand why some see it as 'more secret sh!t...'

I tried to reach out in a spirit of community. There's obviously many in the community that aren't going to accept anything but 'MSB Admins Are The Enemy'. Fine; I'm sure there's many here that feel the same about BMD. I'm not one of those, though. If anything, I'm ambivalent about the split, now. Please tell the admins to delete my account there, since community unity seems to be off the table there and anything coming from any of us admins here is going to be disregarded or misinterpreted to further the divide.

[Kassien]

@Runescryer
@Selira

To be clear I have no problem with the initial post, or even the initial responses.

However, I feel like there does come a point where the public back and forth can discourage the community as a whole.

[Runescryer]

@Tirit Agreed.

But there's also something to be said about the damaging effect of 'Everything is Fine; Keep Smiling...'

[Selira]

@Runescryer It's not my job to send a message on your behalf, sorry. I'm not friends with any of the admins on Discord or anything like that, either.

If something was under investigation, you shouldn't have said shit unless you were willing to put a name to it. This "tee hee I know something but I'm not telling" is really a nasty habit of yours.

My problems with you stemmed from repeating that kind of behavior and making a bad accusation without evidence, and when it became really clear it was something that developed out of a personal grudge you had, more than anything else.

ETA: And part of being willing to put a name to it is being ready to weather the inevitable storm that's going to come from naming anyone.

ETA2: Also, you realize no one flamed you because you were an MSB admin, right? They went on you because of explicitly what you were saying, why you were saying it, and how you were saying it.

[Runescryer]

@Selira shrugs I'm pretty much ambivalent at this point. if you're going to ascribe bad intentions on my part, go right ahead.