As someone who does illustration for a living (or tries to), I often would undersell myself too until I tried to think of it in terms of time spent. I can't expect a client to know how much my work is worth if I myself can't even go 'yeah, I think it'll be this amount for this thing'.

I think there's just people who don't understand the work/time involved. $25 US for a commission could work for someone just beginning if took them, say, two hours tops and took little in the way of materials to do. If it takes two hours, it'd be $12.50 an hour, not taking into account any material cost. Bonus if I retain rights to it, but that's more for illustrations, not personal commissions.

Where we get into 'uh no' territory is when it's, say, $25 for a commission that is going to take at least 5 hours after research, fixes, etc. That'd be $5 dollars an hour, for a custom piece of artwork made for one person. That's less than minimum wage in most US states. That's $25 for five hours I can't spend doing something else, whether it be for work or personal things.

A commission to someone for cheap isn't going to get anyone's foot into any door. It just gets me recommended as the artist who'd be willing to do it for cheap. I'd rather reserve lower prices for someone I personally know and trust, a charity needing art pieces for an auction, a project I want to help, etc.

This is my two cents, and I didn't get a chance to read the OP, so this doesn't reflect on anything they may have said.

I lurk here for purely research reasons I swear, but I figured I'd go do a second post.

Active(ish???) Cats:
Enoha, Arisa@PersonaMush

So there's not much, as I am helping with a thing. And opening a character idea file for any MU* concept that I hear about. So that's me.

OLD CATS I HAVE BEEN:
@Ineffable: Nagi, Jaci, Kino
@Jipang: Many OCs I don't remember, Ran
@Xenogears: Rani
@YAHMux: Molly, Nagi
@Gate: Nagi Kuzunoha
@Match of the Millenium: Shurui
@Battle Fantasia: Akemi
@Black Gate Mux: Elaine, Kino, Yui, Nagi
Others: Too many that I can't name and don't have logs for, due to unfortunate hard drive failures.

tl;dr I've been RPing on various MUs for way too long and i've forgotten everything, i'm so sorry
also if i have somehow pissed someone off in my journey towards being an adult i am sorry for that too

Coming as a newb to this board, but not to the anime/video game side of MUs, I'd say MU*es largely place RP first as their priority. Not going to go down the same points other people have made here, but I've seen some threads here talking about coded combat and the like, so here's my take on that instead.

I've been on some MUs where there's coded combat, but it's often with the idea that it's there as an optional tool/toy, specific to that MU*'s theme, to help with decisions, present ideas, and not overrule the flow of the scene. RP is a collaborative effort and consent-based.

One MU* I was on had status effects like Panic, which could be added to specific attacks. It was up to the player if they'd reflect this in their pose, and sometimes, it just wasn't a good idea to. Two other characters may be having a defining dramatic moment on that round, and drawing attention to my character would ruin that. Later on in another fight, however, if I'm hit with Panic again, I may use that as a prompt to show the effects on my character because it would sell some aspect of the other character who inflicted the Panic status. My character may even attack one of their friends, as long as I clear it through a page to other player of that character. The panic status is there in both cases, so the chances of my next attack hitting will suffer in the code, but I was in charge of how I expressed it.

That's there the difference is, for me. Code can be added and things can be automated, but if it gets in the way of telling a story, forces the theme to fit it (rather than the other way around), and/or doesn't help create opportunities for RP, it just doesn't work.

@ThatGuyThere said:

@HorrorHound said:

Just, uh, prepare for the psychologically challenged. M'kay?

We are mushers aren't we kind of used to the psychologically challenged?

Can't be any worse than the stuff I posed when I was an emotional teenage roleplayer.

If anything, I've been mostly impressed with the sorts of people that managed to find the place I staffed on in recent years, which was app-first. Usually, when you see the phrase 'new to MU*ing' in a application, the apps will be prone to a vast array of errors. Instead, I'd get apps for characters that, with a few changes and hooks here and there, were pretty ready to hit the grid. They already seemed to have learned that their character can't be the special snowflake drinking their dark ale in a dark corner of the tavern, or bar, or whatever the theme is. That was something some of us had to sometimes learn the hard way.

I'm actually going to pursue this vein a bit myself, if just because the more roleplay intensive places like the place I'm working on may be good gateways to other places as well. Looking at Roz's MU* tumblr, I've learned a few things I might try for the future. It's a good example of how to show what makes MU*ing fun, while using tumblr's reblogging nature to its advantage.

@nightshade said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

What I'm saying is, you can sit on your high standards and never get your work off the ground, or you can get the wheels turning through imperfect means. At least this is my personal experience, and what worked out for me. I suppose your mileage may vary, but I hope this perspective helps someone.

For certain situations, I'd agree, if it was due to circumstances, the client, or because it's something an artist feels is a good deal in other ways. What I often see is where it's someone pricing themselves below minimum wage out of the idea that 'this is normal'. Work can be cheap and fast, cheap and good, or fast and good, but it can't be all three at the same time.

I suppose there's a reason why undercharging and dumping prices is a reality of the business world: it works. If someone shows up in the market offering same quality for lower prices, they're suddenly taking all your clients. But they can't viably continue to provide that kinda quality for that price, nor will they want to. So these things are a blip on the radar and should be regarded as such. It does suck when it happens, but the market is dynamic and shit keeps changing.

This can be a thing if we're talking, say, retail. It's one thing to dump prices when you're selling extra stock of a mass-produced item, or when you're trying to stand out from listings in retail. If I remember right, a retail store bought those items at manufacturing cost, so if they sell below the retail price, they still make their money back.

However, for a personal commission, there's no way to spread the cost of an item around. If I draw someone's OC, I can't really sell prints of it, or sell it to someone else as a cover for their magazine.

I used to be against combat systems in MU*s, but after being on a few places, I now really like how they aid in keeping things fair and adding an element of randomness. Granted, I'm coming from a non WoD or superhero comic background, so YMMV.

The way I see it, the thing to keep in mind is that the system should be tailored to the MU* and its theme, not the other way around, and it should be optional. It's a fun tool that can be used to organize a large fight, and if all the players involved in a scene want something to happen, it can be easily circumvented with various commands.

Really, though, I find it's nice to leave it up to a system whether or not your fireball hits, instead of determining if the other player is going to get mad at you because your fireball keeps hitting or not.

Yeah, I'm helping get an old(ish) MU* ready for another go, and while the theme's not WoD and something we could get new people into, it's just hard finding communities to chat and advertise on newer RP forums or sites like Tumblr. The communities and blogs I've run across don't allow for any ads MUSH/MUX/etc based, but perhaps when I get more time I'll just directly ask them.

Granted, that's how I found this place: by screaming at google at wildly pointing at the word I typed in and asking it to not give me results for mushrooms.

I honestly think that MU* s could offer something new to RPers who are looking for something lightweight, especially on tablets and phones. It doesn't need constant attention, it doesn't need a specific console or computer, and/or your internet access is limited or spotty, MU* s are great. Telnet seems to connect okay, but I've never tried to stretch it beyond 'connecting in to chat while cooking'.

When it comes to systems, I come from the other side of the MU* coin, where combat systems and dice rolls really weren't a thing, really. It's only been in the past decade or so that my circle's kind of accepted the benefits of combat systems and the like, but every system we add onto that is largely based around 'if the system's results disagree with the fact that you got hit in the head by a hammer, RP the fact that you got hit by a hammer'.

The new players I do see tend to come in due to a setting incorporating a theme or piece of media they like. The more complicated and rigid the system, the more overwhelmed a person may be, but that tends to be a thing even for MU* rpers in my neck of the woods. One thing Dream Chasers MU* did was have a test area that guests could access that had Digs (a system for helping GM dungeon situations).

As for overpopulation, I think applications tend to help in MU*s I've been on, as long as new players understand it's less 'job interview' and more 'will your character be able to fit the theme and thrive on the grid'. If someone apps a loner who drinks their darke ale in the corner of the tavern without more hooks or attributes beyond that, staff's going to offer suggestions and send the app back. If there's an excess of a specific trait or type in characters that isn't meshing well with the theme, they may be added to the 'restricted' list.

I used to think MUs were on their way out, but seeing more and more preferences for different and unique types of gaming that are free, not tied to a specific site that could change & make RPing impossible (ie Tumblr) and flexible for players (not talking code-wise, as that's another bag of worms), I'm beginning to wonder if there there's a lot of attractive qualities MUs can have, as long as we're aware of them.

Sounds like an alternative has already been found, but I'll mention this in case anyone else stumbles across this post with a similar problem.

I remember there being some roleplay sites that sprung up when Tumblr did some changes to how it formatted posts and people there panicked. None of these were built with MUs in mind (I have trouble enough finding communities that allow for ads for MU*s on there), but something that sprung out of that could work for noncoded RP in a pinch.

This was one that stood out to me due to its no frills look and there being no need for registering, but there's no function for rooms and the like. I've yet to use it. The admin has stated they do skim logs to make sure nothing illegal is happening, which I can understand as there's probably underage users using it.

I honestly think that MU* s could offer something new to RPers who are looking for something lightweight, especially on tablets and phones. It doesn't need constant attention, it doesn't need a specific console or computer, and/or your internet access is limited or spotty, MU* s are great. Telnet seems to connect okay, but I've never tried to stretch it beyond 'connecting in to chat while cooking'.

When it comes to systems, I come from the other side of the MU* coin, where combat systems and dice rolls really weren't a thing, really. It's only been in the past decade or so that my circle's kind of accepted the benefits of combat systems and the like, but every system we add onto that is largely based around 'if the system's results disagree with the fact that you got hit in the head by a hammer, RP the fact that you got hit by a hammer'.

The new players I do see tend to come in due to a setting incorporating a theme or piece of media they like. The more complicated and rigid the system, the more overwhelmed a person may be, but that tends to be a thing even for MU* rpers in my neck of the woods. One thing Dream Chasers MU* did was have a test area that guests could access that had Digs (a system for helping GM dungeon situations).

As for overpopulation, I think applications tend to help in MU*s I've been on, as long as new players understand it's less 'job interview' and more 'will your character be able to fit the theme and thrive on the grid'. If someone apps a loner who drinks their darke ale in the corner of the tavern without more hooks or attributes beyond that, staff's going to offer suggestions and send the app back. If there's an excess of a specific trait or type in characters that isn't meshing well with the theme, they may be added to the 'restricted' list.

I used to think MUs were on their way out, but seeing more and more preferences for different and unique types of gaming that are free, not tied to a specific site that could change & make RPing impossible (ie Tumblr) and flexible for players (not talking code-wise, as that's another bag of worms), I'm beginning to wonder if there there's a lot of attractive qualities MUs can have, as long as we're aware of them.

@nightshade said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

What I'm saying is, you can sit on your high standards and never get your work off the ground, or you can get the wheels turning through imperfect means. At least this is my personal experience, and what worked out for me. I suppose your mileage may vary, but I hope this perspective helps someone.

For certain situations, I'd agree, if it was due to circumstances, the client, or because it's something an artist feels is a good deal in other ways. What I often see is where it's someone pricing themselves below minimum wage out of the idea that 'this is normal'. Work can be cheap and fast, cheap and good, or fast and good, but it can't be all three at the same time.

I suppose there's a reason why undercharging and dumping prices is a reality of the business world: it works. If someone shows up in the market offering same quality for lower prices, they're suddenly taking all your clients. But they can't viably continue to provide that kinda quality for that price, nor will they want to. So these things are a blip on the radar and should be regarded as such. It does suck when it happens, but the market is dynamic and shit keeps changing.

This can be a thing if we're talking, say, retail. It's one thing to dump prices when you're selling extra stock of a mass-produced item, or when you're trying to stand out from listings in retail. If I remember right, a retail store bought those items at manufacturing cost, so if they sell below the retail price, they still make their money back.

However, for a personal commission, there's no way to spread the cost of an item around. If I draw someone's OC, I can't really sell prints of it, or sell it to someone else as a cover for their magazine.

As someone who does illustration for a living (or tries to), I often would undersell myself too until I tried to think of it in terms of time spent. I can't expect a client to know how much my work is worth if I myself can't even go 'yeah, I think it'll be this amount for this thing'.

I think there's just people who don't understand the work/time involved. $25 US for a commission could work for someone just beginning if took them, say, two hours tops and took little in the way of materials to do. If it takes two hours, it'd be $12.50 an hour, not taking into account any material cost. Bonus if I retain rights to it, but that's more for illustrations, not personal commissions.

Where we get into 'uh no' territory is when it's, say, $25 for a commission that is going to take at least 5 hours after research, fixes, etc. That'd be $5 dollars an hour, for a custom piece of artwork made for one person. That's less than minimum wage in most US states. That's $25 for five hours I can't spend doing something else, whether it be for work or personal things.

A commission to someone for cheap isn't going to get anyone's foot into any door. It just gets me recommended as the artist who'd be willing to do it for cheap. I'd rather reserve lower prices for someone I personally know and trust, a charity needing art pieces for an auction, a project I want to help, etc.

This is my two cents, and I didn't get a chance to read the OP, so this doesn't reflect on anything they may have said.

@rook

Bah, sorry, phone was being glitchy there.

In that proposed scenario, I'd wonder about the communication between the community, and whether a player was mistaking IC for OOC, which is a problem that's old as time. In situations I've had, it's usually that, or something unintentional being conveyed.

Confession time: I remember back when I was a dumb Midwestern kid back in the 90's, when a friend had to politely correct me on certain words.

I've been on Dream Chasers MU*, and I've been pretty happy with how the themes have been handled. Due to how things are set up, there's definitely more than one way prejudice comes into the picture. You have your sky city civilization looking down on the uncouth surface people, you have humans looking down on beastmen/demihumans, you have ancient space aliens looking down on humans, and you have a secret returning race of humans looking down on just about everyone, even employing a sort of forced labor system on their grounds. Magic guns are a thing most have, but depending on where you are, it could be seen as anything from 'a necessary evil' to 'a mark of a demon'. And this doesn't even touch on the ones that are more based in reality, like sex, gender, skin color, class, etc.

I agree that the trick is to allow people to play their characters as they wish/feel is IC for their character, or visit those themes in ways they feel comfortable portraying. There can always be NPCs to fill the void if a playerbase strays more one way or another.

It's also comfort level. Some levels of prejudice are easier to pose than others, and if someone finds something, even if it's innocent, that makes them feel uncomfortable, they should be able to feel free to contact staff about it and/or talk it over with the player(s) involved.

@tempest

I'm not staff there, but I can shed some light on this as a player there. The policy is that they slowly introduce new series during certain chapters and acts (ie Chapter 1, Act 2) as the grid and plot focus(es) shift around.

It's had some pros and cons, but I think it's ensured several games' plots don't start out of the gate at the same time and compete with each other. Also, some plot items, like WA2, are already being dropped in hints. I hoping it'll have the side effect of also allowing new people of feeling able to jump in without having to be there at the MU* opening, too, but that's just my theory.

As for the one other place I've been on:
Battle Fantasia: Been on there on and off. If you like magical girl anime and the whole aesthetic of it, give it a try. I couldn't really get into it after a while, but that was more me than staff's fault.

@Sunny

You know, that goes to show that if you're doomed to failure, make it so epic that everyone talks about it for years to come.

@WTFE said in Getting a sense of what sort of MU* ads are okay:

IIRC there were two criticisms of Flights'n'Tights. One was the invalid "ew, gay superheroes!" one. The other was calling out the "we're inclusive" thing paired with the "no girls!" thing juxtaposed with it. That latter one is valid, IMO.

Oh man, I remember that one! That was an... interesting read, if in an arena of MU*s I'm not as familiar with.

@Sunny Oh! Sorry, I wasn't being clear. Yeah, the admin did not pull down the post, and I have no reason to suspect they did.

And I get what you're saying, there. If the MU* was something that I had a hand in, I'd probably just post it in the advertisements section and be fine with it all. However, since I'd be posting ads for MU*s I don't have a personal hand in creating, I'm being a bit more cautious on that front and gauge how people felt about it.

I began to lurk on this board about a year or so ago when I was looking for places where the more roleplay variety of MU*s were discussed- MUSHes, MUXs, MUCKs, etc. As time's gone on, it's harder to find places like this, which brings me to my question:

Would it be generally frowned on to post ads for anime/manga and/or video game themed MU*s on here?

I ask because, about a year ago, I've seen one ad for a new MUSH be pulled because around one or two people were criticizing it in the ad thread for being a format they didn't prefer. Since then, I've been cautious about advertising the newer places I'm on, since I didn't want to unintentionally throw a place in a bad light for advertising on the wrong space.

This probably has to be the only active places I know that deal with MUSH and MUX formats, so I figured it was worth it to ask, especially since I haven't seen it happen since.

This is niceee. There was a guide on a MU* I was on, but this is useful because it's not based around a specific MU*'s theme.