Potential Game / Temperature Read

WildBaboons · Oct 16, 2017, 7:25 PM

@auspice
Dresden Files RPG had a similar approach to magic where you had schools (elements) of magic and then a Power or Control rating in that school. It worked pretty well.

I've been considering doing something similar magic wise with FS3 for Wheel of Time too.

I haven't watched the Magicians show, just read the awesome books... but what would characters on the MU actually do? outside of classes/baRP?

Auspice · Oct 16, 2017, 7:27 PM

@wildbaboons said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

but what would characters on the MU actually do? outside of classes/baRP?

Well, my metaplot has my own designed 'big evil.' Plus, the opening of the Neitherlands would allow people to design their own worlds.

I'd want it to be a game that encourages people to run their own things. Have your characters (once the Neitherlands are there) find a portal. Design what that world is like (and post it on the wiki). Then run stuff there.

Tempest · Oct 16, 2017, 7:34 PM

Assuming magicians, how would you handle the uh..."bonus powers" stuff like the teleporter guy? Like it's not normal magic, but that guy can do normal magic too on top of his OMG RARE ABILITY.

(As you can see, I am clearly an expert on Magicians theme.)

Wizz · Oct 16, 2017, 7:34 PM

@auspice

I know what you mean, it's always been intimidating and confusing to me, haha, but I kind of love it. I think if you really limited the "improvised casting" element of the system by ramping up the penalties to do it, emphasized the use of/bumped up the number of rotes, and kept the powerlevel relatively low for PCs, it would fit the setting and discourage the insane powergaming that induces that headache for most people maybe?

And I think a familiar system would draw rather than repulse players, I feel like that's an argument that gets pushed a lot here ("I wanna use WoD 'cuz people know it!"), but I dunno. Why do you think so?

WildBaboons · Oct 16, 2017, 7:40 PM

I kept reading Neitherlands as Netherlands and could not figure out why you were so stuck including the Dutch, as awesome a people as they are.

WoD 2.0 is way way to complex/crunchy I think for what Auspice might be looking for. the "quick guide" for casting a spell is multiple pages long.

Auspice · Oct 16, 2017, 7:41 PM

@tempest said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

Assuming magicians, how would you handle the uh..."bonus powers" stuff like the teleporter guy? Like it's not normal magic, but that guy can do normal magic too on top of his OMG RARE ABILITY.

(As you can see, I am clearly an expert on Magicians theme.)

Well, for one, Travelers won't be allowed. The problem with OMGRARE abilities like that is everyone wants one. And if everyone has one, it negates how rare they are. Just like hedge witches, Travelers won't be played by PCs. One might show up as an NPC for plot someday, but that's it.

@wizz
Of the nWoD 2.0 systems, I think Mage is the most headache inducing. I hate it. I hated making a character in it. There's shit that's not properly described in that book. Blurbs that are vital to your character, but never actually fleshed out.

So while it may draw Mage players, I think it'd turn away people who want to just delve into the setting. I don't want to go for that 'how much can I break this system to be THE MOST POWERFUL' that draws so many Mage players.

Auspice · Oct 16, 2017, 7:43 PM

Does anyone else remember, about 10-15 years ago, how Staff could be hands-off and players would entertain themselves? And it wasn't all BarRP? People ran plots for themselves, for their friends, etc...

that is my goal with whatever game I put together. And a large part of why I want FS3 is it's super approachable. I've seen people who have never run things go from being really nervous at the start of their scene to 'Oh this is easy!' and running half a dozen more.

WildBaboons · Oct 16, 2017, 7:51 PM

@auspice
Depending on where you played that never really stopped. That's been common place on MUs I've played on all along. It's up to staff to make players feel empowered to do that and trusting players to do it without wanting to micromanage everything.

Three-Eyed Crow · Oct 16, 2017, 7:57 PM

It's also about players...actually doing it. Some people just will without much prompting. Some just won't, no matter what you do. You can try to create an environment/culture that encourages it, and to create things to react to, but this is one of those things that depends on people taking ownership of their own fun. Which a staffer's control of is limited.

Arkandel · Oct 16, 2017, 7:58 PM

@auspice said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

Does anyone else remember, about 10-15 years ago, how Staff could be hands-off and players would entertain themselves? And it wasn't all BarRP? People ran plots for themselves, for their friends, etc...

I think part of that is nostalgia. And part is higher numbers and greater excitement when things were still relatively new and fresh.

But I remember entire spheres in early nWoD games in the 2000's dying for an absolute lack of things to do for example.

Auspice · Oct 16, 2017, 7:58 PM

@wildbaboons said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

@auspice
Depending on where you played that never really stopped. That's been common place on MUs I've played on all along. It's up to staff to make players feel empowered to do that and trusting players to do it without wanting to micromanage everything.

See, my experience the last few years has been different. 80% or more of players just sit around engaging in BarRP or even just moaning about 'nothing to do' unless Staff (and only Staff) run +events.

I've had games where I'll run plots/events once a week and get maybe 4 people at best, while others sit on Pubchan and cry about nothing to do.

Three-Eyed Crow · Oct 16, 2017, 8:04 PM

@arkandel said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

@auspice said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

Does anyone else remember, about 10-15 years ago, how Staff could be hands-off and players would entertain themselves? And it wasn't all BarRP? People ran plots for themselves, for their friends, etc...

I think part of that is nostalgia. And part is higher numbers and greater excitement when things were still relatively new and fresh.

I do actually think it's gotten worse over maybe the past decade, as the way we absorb/interact with entertainment has become more passive. You can log off now and find a ton of things to do the "work" of entertainment for you, whereas MUing requires some active participation, and after years of MMOs and on-demand stuff, I think that actually has gotten a bit harder to accept. I don't want to have too rose-colored a view of The Olden Days, but I feel like this is a societal change, not just a MU change.

I agree smaller player populations is also a part of it, though. It's all bigger stuff, imo, than one staffer can entirely change, beyond trying to encourage the culture they want on their game.

WildBaboons · Oct 16, 2017, 8:05 PM

For me 4 people at an event/plot would be a success and probably as big as I want to go, but I loathe larger scenes.

Ownership of their own fun is a big thing. Letting players have a stake in the game, make plots that actually change things, take a life of their own beyond when the event ends, etc. What I've seen as the biggest hurdle to this is making it an onerous process for players to actually run a plot. Making the approval process to run it a bunch of busy work, bureaucracy. People are lazy and want to have fun, not input text into jobs.

I see the Magicians setting as the most likely to allow this as you have explained it

SunnyJ · Oct 16, 2017, 8:34 PM

The Magicians sounds super cool.

As for a system, it all depends on how crunchy you want it to be? I agree that nWoD Mage is not a good one at all. Too powerful, a tad complex and even if you master it... it is still unbalanced and not really worth it. If you want to create a system, I would love to help if you wanted, otherwise, I would suggest adapting from Blood Sorcery (which is way simpler than Mage).

I have not seen The Magicians yet, so I wouldn't know what fits the setting the best, but I would fo sure watch it for the game. Sounds cool and all!

Thenomain · Oct 16, 2017, 8:39 PM

@three-eyed-crow said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

It's also about players...actually doing it.

In the very late 90s, early 00s, players would whine to staff that X person wasn't doing Y right. That itself wasn't a problem but then this kind of player started building games or given positions of authority on games.

Mostly this is WoD and Pern, but a lot of players have had the "you are encouraged" beaten out of them, and there is a culture that continues this.

faraday · Oct 16, 2017, 8:54 PM

@thenomain said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

Mostly this is WoD and Pern, but a lot of players have had the "you are encouraged" beaten out of them, and there is a culture that continues this.

I don't think the discouragement is limited to those kinds of games. It's so pervasive that even when your game policies are all: "You can run plots. No really. PLEASE RUN PLOTS." nobody(*) believes you.

And because people are so sensitive about it, even the slightest thematic or continuity correction often gets taken as "ZOMG you said I could run plots WTF" and leads to people being gunshy.

Offer encouragement? Sure, great idea. But how? If the rewards are too good, you get people running plots for the wrong reasons, and it can also lead to a have/have-not atmosphere for those blessed with the schedule, free time and organizational skills. If the rewards aren't good enough, nobody cares.

For me, it feel very much like a no-win situation, so it's something I've just given up stressing over. Either people will run plots or they won't. Either they'll be happy with the number of staff-run plots or they won't. Largely it's out of your control.

Also... this is how threads get de-railed. But I'm too lazy to spawn a new one, so... guilty your honor.

(*) hyperbole alert

Auspice · Oct 16, 2017, 8:54 PM

It seems Magicians might be 'winning' over Expanse. But the issue of 'what system' still lies. I don't want anything too crunchy because I want the focus to be on storytelling. The system should be a secondary driver, not a primary.

And I don't really want to design one from scratch. I really lack the time for that- if it came down to that, I'd rather help someone else with such a game than make one myself.

As for the atmosphere- I agree. I've been on the games where everything is micromanaged. I don't want to do that. I want to setup a place where people are free to play how/what they want. Want just the BarRP? Ok. Want to run plots? Great, here's the tools, just give me a heads up if it goes outside of X or Y parameters so I can help you shape it or make sure it fits.

Arkandel · Oct 16, 2017, 9:06 PM

@auspice Unless you plan to do a whole lot of STing yourself (or you have an army of GMs to do it for you), you should also pick whichever system/theme allows for players to generate as much of their own content as possible.

Auspice · Oct 16, 2017, 9:12 PM

@arkandel said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

@auspice Unless you plan to do a whole lot of STing yourself (or you have an army of GMs to do it for you), you should also pick whichever system/theme allows for players to generate as much of their own content as possible.

Right. Which is why I really like FS3. It's just easiest for 'dive in and go.' Mage, as was suggested above... the learning curve is high for players and STs. We've had discussions on how people don't like STing Mage in other threads.

So a low-crunch system that's approachable. But has to be able to support Magic.

It's not a question I see answered anytime soon, unfortunately. Not unless I just ditch system altogether and make it wholly consent, but... at the same time, Magicians is still something where characters are balanced an specialized in their own ways. I can see people wanting some measure of system. I'd want some measure of system.

It may be best left to the 'drawing board' until a good system (and code for it) shows up and I could work on Expanse instead, which FS3 fits perfectly for.

faraday · Oct 16, 2017, 9:14 PM

@auspice said in Potential Game / Temperature Read:

Which is why I really like FS3. It's just easiest for 'dive in and go.'

Really? I mean, sure if you're doing mass combats it's comparatively easy for running something, but for anything else? It's a basic "roll and count success" system just like a million other RPG systems out there. I don't see how it's any easier to dive into. And it certainly doesn't help with generating content, as @Arkandel says. What will the players do in those settings other than relationships and BarRP... that's the key question.