How should IC discrimination be handled?

[rebekahse]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@rebekahse

I didn't say it should be a huge chance. But it should be there. If the historically accurate misery is going to rain, it should rain on everybody, right?

Sure, I have no problem with that.

Though I'll admit being intensely interested in your view of "bad things happening to my character = fun tax." Do you feel as though that's kind of revealing as to where you're coming from in this discussion?

[Collective]

@faraday said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

That seems kind of extreme. Just because I, as staff, wouldn't inflict Random Typhoid or Random Fires or Random Murder or Random Racism on somebody doesn't mean that typhoid and fires and murder and racism don't exist in the theme.

Okay, so why is bigotry different in that a player should have to put up with it on a non-consensual basis? If your character can't get sick without consent, or can't have their IC house burn down without consent, what makes it okay for the players of those characters to have to sit through abusive language and situations based on race, orientation, etc?

[Auspice]

@saosmash said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

I'm really genuinely confused about what this argument even is anymore.

p. sure Collective is just our new shit-stirrer and people keep engaging.

[Collective]

@rebekahse

Nope. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't say 'bad things happening' equals a fun tax. Bad things happen to my characters all the time and that's fine. That's plot. BUT this specific category of bad thing, that the majority of players don't have to deal with shouldn't be an extra hurdle to my fun.

[faraday]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

Okay, so why is bigotry different in that a player should have to put up with it on a non-consensual basis? If your character can't get sick without consent, or can't have their IC house burn down without consent, what makes it okay for the players of those characters to have to sit through abusive language and situations based on race, orientation, etc?

I didn't say anything about consensual. I was talking expressly on "Random Crap Heaped Upon You From On High By Staff" when you were implying that people should just randomly get typhoid.

Once you get other players into the mix, it comes down to the game's consent policy. Some games are more consent-y than others.

[Collective]

@auspice I am not trying to stir shit. I am, I will admit, disagreeing with the majority of the people I'm talking to here on this topic.

If that's a problem and unwelcome, I will be happy to close my user account here and go away.

I had rather assumed that this wasn't the old WORA and that constructive conversation is allowed and welcomed, even when people don't (and won't) agree. If not, obviously I'm in the wrong place.

[Auspice]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@auspice I am not trying to stir shit. I am, I will admit, disagreeing with the majority of the people I'm talking to here on this topic.

If that's a problem and unwelcome, I will be happy to close my user account here and go away.

I had rather assumed that this wasn't the old WORA and that constructive conversation is allowed and welcomed, even when people don't (and won't) agree. If not, obviously I'm in the wrong place.

I've been watching you say the same things in different ways for the past number of days while constantly adjusting the goal posts.

That's not constructive.

I'm shocked people keep trying because it's abundantly clear that you care very little about their opinions.

ETA:
@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

I had rather assumed that this wasn't the old WORA

And things like this aren't helpful at all. They're intended to try to get an 'OMG WE'RE NOT OLD WORA AT ALL HOW DARE YOU' so you can sit back and go 'Oh dear why are you so riled up and emotional now?'.

People have been trying to be constructive, helpful, and even find middle grounds. You have steadfastly dug your heels in. They're not going to jump to your side of the fence, so it may be time to step away.

[Roz]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@faraday said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

That seems kind of extreme. Just because I, as staff, wouldn't inflict Random Typhoid or Random Fires or Random Murder or Random Racism on somebody doesn't mean that typhoid and fires and murder and racism don't exist in the theme.

Okay, so why is bigotry different in that a player should have to put up with it on a non-consensual basis? If your character can't get sick without consent, or can't have their IC house burn down without consent, what makes it okay for the players of those characters to have to sit through abusive language and situations based on race, orientation, etc?

Oh my God. Literally where has anyone said that a player should be forced to sit through that? Discrimination existing within a theme =/= Every player is forced to sit through shit they don't want to sit through.

You are repeatedly vilifying anyone in this thread who indicates any support of allowing IC discrimination to exist in the theme, despite your occasional assurances that you're not trying to "enforce" anything. People have already said multiple times "players shouldn't have to submit to scenes with abusive language that make them OOCly uncomfortable," it's just that people aren't saying "we will never include any real world IC discrimination on this game" that you seem to be objecting to. There is so much space in between "there is no IC discrimination allowed on the game" and "you will be forced to interact with all IC discrimination no matter how abusive or pervasive," and nearly every game I can think of is going to exist between those two extremes.

It would be much more productive to talk about "what are the most effective ways/tools we can use to help people navigate when there are thematic issues that hit too close to home for them OOCly and help people to play in a collaborative manner that's fun for everyone." Which is not the conversation you're having. Your conversation seems to be "there is no reason why anyone should want to engage in these themes on a game."

[Collective]

@faraday

It's the same thing, though, isn't it? If Player A has the right and expectation that her character can be a racist asshole to Player B's character and player B doesn't have the expectation that they can play without it, then Player B is being hit with unpleasant but realistic IC situations over which they have no control with a basis in 'this is history'.

So, following that logic, it would seem to me that Player A should also have the chance of that kind of situation being dropped on them. Because, you know, history.

[Ganymede]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

I had rather assumed that this wasn't the old WORA and that constructive conversation is allowed and welcomed, even when people don't (and won't) agree. If not, obviously I'm in the wrong place.

You're not offering constructive conversation by asking rhetorical questions.

I think you've answered your own questions. Several times. For example:

Okay, so why is bigotry different in that a player should have to put up with it on a non-consensual basis?

You don't. If a game clearly informs a player that THERE BE BIGOTRY HERE, ARRR!! you can elect not to make a PC there, and move on. If you are confronted with this, you could ask the offending player to stop or cut RP off there, filing a complaint if necessary.

I have seen precisely zero people who have suggested you just sit there and take it.

If your character can't get sick without consent, or can't have their IC house burn down without consent, what makes it okay for the players of those characters to have to sit through abusive language and situations based on race, orientation, etc?

See above answer.

You don't.

I haven't, and I don't plan to.

[rebekahse]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@rebekahse

I didn't say 'bad things happening' equals a fun tax. Bad things happen to my characters all the time and that's fine. That's plot. BUT this specific category of bad thing, that the majority of players don't have to deal with shouldn't be an extra hurdle to my fun.

The majority of players very well might, depending on what kind of character they chose to play.

I may also just hang out in uniquely women-heavy games, but I think I could make an argument that the majority of us are going to have to deal with bigotry regardless in a historical setting that hews close to historical reality.

Unless we're saying that only certain types of bigotry 'count.'

[surreality]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

BUT this specific category of bad thing, that the majority of players don't have to deal with shouldn't be an extra hurdle to my fun.

You realize 'straight white male' is not actually the majority in this hobby?

Pretty sure female players outpaced men a long time back, and female players absolutely have this hurdle IC and OOC commonly put in their path. A number of those women are bi or lesbian. Some are also people of color.

Please stop talking to us like we have absolutely no idea what it is to face discrimination or abuse in this way. We do.

Other than @Apos, @ThatGuyThere, and @Thenomain, so far as I am aware, all of the repeat posters on this subject are women. (I am not even considering that generic dude's drive-by pot-shot post, because why would anyone.)

[faraday]

@roz said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

It would be much more productive to talk about "what are the most effective ways/tools we can use to help people navigate when there are thematic issues that hit too close to home for them OOCly and help people to play in a collaborative manner that's fun for everyone." Which is not the conversation you're having. Your conversation seems to be "there is no reason why anyone should want to engage in these themes on a game."

Yes. Can we please get back to this? Because the other debate is going nowhere.

We have FTB as a tool.

We have player cooperation as a tool ("Hey I know your char hates Virgons but can we find a way to work together because I'd like to play with you and not eat crap all the time" "Sure that sounds cool").

Folks have talked about opt-out as a tool, which can work sometimes ("I'm just gonna skip the big debate about women voting rights because I know that's going to be miserable") but I still have yet to hear a good explanation of how you deal with a situation where racism and sexism are a thing and you've got an African American woman trying to be a deputy. Like, seriously... how do you opt out of that?

What other tools are there?

[Collective]

@ganymede

And when I asked if people were willing to put a notice like that in theme, the reply was variations on 'No'.

But fuck it, apparently I'm annoying people by continuing to talk about this, so I'll shut up.

If nothing else it's been instructive about whose games I'd be a bad fit for.

[peasoupling]

If I make a character type that has some IC disadvantage by design, in the setting, I do so deliberately. That's not a random roll of the dice for misery. I am choosing to engage with that disadvantage.

Now, the fact that the world, and history in particular, is a terrible place does mean that, in many settings, this will disproportionately affect women, PoC, queer people, religious minorities, etc, particularly if they want to play a character, in some way, like themselves. White men will probably be playing on easy mode by default, though they can, of course, choose to play a white male peasant if that's their jam.

And yes, if someone is not at all interested in dealing with that, however remotely, in their fun times, maybe that game is not for them. It may be a game for someone else who is interested in dealing with that. Both are fine, but they may not enjoy the same game. Then again, depending on how much of a sandbox the game is and where exactly they draw their lines, there may be room for both!

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

If nothing else it's been instructive about whose games I'd be a bad fit for.

I'm curious what games you think have done this well, that you've played on.

[rebekahse]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@ganymede

And when I asked if people were willing to put a notice like that in theme, the reply was variations on 'No'.

Keep in mind it's a pretty small poll, asking it here.

I'm sure I've seen some variation on that notice in games before, so the answer is 'Yes' in some cases.

(It was probably Firan, AKA "the best argument in the world for the idea that people are willing to play characters in games that poop on everybody except rich white men").

[Auspice]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

And when I asked if people were willing to put a notice like that in theme, the reply was variations on 'No'.

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

How willing are you to put a notice on, say, your log-in screen and/or very prominently in your OOC rooms/Character Generation rooms that says something like, 'By playing here, you agree to deal with as many racist, homophobic, sexist and other slurs as your fellow players feel like slinging as long as that slinging stays IC.'

People said no to putting a notice prominently on the login screen / OOC room that said this. Which is extremely heavy-handed. Ganymede's suggestion, however, was to put something much more reasonable within poli-

Why am I even trying? This is you moving the goalposts again. This is you, yet again, saying something wildly unreasonable, having people react, and then acting the victim when it comes up again later. This is precisely the behavior I am talking about.

You don't want a reasonable debate.

You don't want a constructive discussion.

You want to make people look bad. You want to find excuses to retain whatever ideals you've constructed of 'gamers are bad' (in which case why are you playing?).

And I've quoted you, yourself, so you can't pull another 'don't put words in my mouth.' You didn't ask if people were willing to put a notice in theme, you asked if they were willing to put a (rude, tbh) notice on the connect screen or OOC room, not as part of policy or similar.

[surreality]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

And when I asked if people were willing to put a notice like that in theme, the reply was variations on 'No'.

A deliberately single-focus warning about something that might potentially happen? No, nobody's gonna do that.

It has nothing to do with trying to trap someone into enduring abuse.

It does have to do with the practical reality that were someone to write a disclaimer that listed all of the potentially controversial material that may appear on a M*, that login screen would scroll so far beyond the buffer limit that your connection would probably time out before you reached the part explaining how to connect.

Most games with any sort of controversial content will include some form of generalized disclaimer about mature and/or controversial content.

It may be more theoretically practical to spell all of this out on a wiki? And I think people should endeavor to try to list things like this there, along with how they expect people to handle them IC and OOC on the game.

But among a bunch of pedants who understand the actual technical limitations of what you're asking, and further know how many other people have sensitivities that should be similarly clearly identified if this is going to be put into practice? That specific request is not going to get very far.

[faraday]

@rebekahse said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

I'm sure I've seen some variation on that notice in games before, so the answer is 'Yes' in some cases.

Sweetwater had that notice (in the wiki policy file on "Historical Accuracy" though not on the dang connect screen, which strikes me as ludicrous). BSGU warns generally of TV-MA level themes including "heavy themes including genocide, war and various other traumas" so I think that IC discrimination is pretty well covered. But apparently those warnings aren't good enough for some people.

And honestly, despite those warnings, they've been happy, cooperative games 99.9% of the time. I actually got 10x more complaints on Sweetwater about it not being realistic enough by having so many unconventional characters than I ever had problems with people harassing each other ICly. But yes, there was that one time where somebody forced an issue and it turned unpleasant.