World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings
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@faraday said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
@arkandel said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
No matter the genre people need to have stuff to do outside of plots, or when no Storytellers are throwing things for them to feast on.
Westerns have that same problem.
Depends on how you decide to portray and approach the Native American "problem". If everyone is playing a white settler or someone on their "side" you could easily just have constant battles with injuns.
I mean, I wouldn't do that, but.
I generally agree with you, though, yeah. Games that thrive on plot do so because the setting itself pushes for it. In general, the best games have always been the ones where the plot was thick and managed to weed itself into every conversation at least a little.
That, or that one game that was always my favorite where it was basically just one huge exercise in characterization and I put so much effort in getting the personalities and characterizations of each one of my characters jusssst right that every scene was a joy.
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@faraday said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
I don't really believe that's true. There have been countless "successful" (eye of the beholder obviously) games where the only thing filling the time between plots is plot-aftermath or social RP. TGG, pretty much every Battlestar game, most post-apoc games, etc. It works as long as the plots are frequent enough and accessible enough to provide a break from endless BarRP.
That's a pretty big 'as long as' condition though. Especially since the plots in question by their nature don't get to involve everyone, or they're fragmented (as the case often is with sandbox games) which prevents a semblance of a narrative from providing a hook to facilitate socialization.
In other words if we meet at a bar we still need something to talk about. Some common ground, something we both want to work towards or against each other... but there needs to be more than "so, vampires suck... amirite?" because that gives you a topic the first time, but what about the second one?
Momentum is similarly a very big deal. When a game is established and there have been several plotlines already you can dig into the past and mine treasure there, but sometimes new games are dead on arrival because they get locked in this catch-22 of nothing to do and nothing having been done before, which in combination with mostly new characters players aren't that attached to yet... it can deflate interest pretty fast.
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@coin said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
Depends on how you decide to portray and approach the Native American "problem". If everyone is playing a white settler or someone on their "side" you could easily just have constant battles with injuns.
I mean, I wouldn't do that, but.Yeah I wouldn't do that either but you're correct.
@arkandel said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
That's a pretty big 'as long as' condition though.
And yet it's worked. It takes effort but it can be done. It has been done.
Example of it working: When my western Sweetwater first opened, the metaplot was a range war between two rival ranches. There were frequent plots that involved a whole bunch of people directly and even more people indirectly. Those plots then had tendrils that spread out into everyday conversations ("OMG did you hear what happened?") and plotting, and injuries and other aftermath. It was great. Yet there really wasn't much else going on besides the range war or everyday western life RP.
Example of it not working: My game Martian Dreams was set on Mars in the aftermath of a revolution. (Basically a sequel to my novel.) Our active players included a couple scientists, a couple doctors, a corporate exec, a firefighter, a cop, a teenager and a preacher. Yeah, try working all of those people into a plot more than once They were all awesome characters individually, but their stories never intersected. Although there was an intended metaplot, it was too hard for them to work their way into it.
So I think we're generally in agreement that players need stuff to do or else you lose momentum. Just the execution is different.
A mortal-only game where you're an X-Files or Fringe type of group could work, for instance. One where you've got a motley crew like my MDM game? Notsomuch.
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@apu said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
... what about a disease that hits the supers, requiring them to work for a cure.
I ran with this on Reno before its first closure. I had a few scenes on this, with all three main "races." Scheduling was difficult because the players that wanted to be involved did not always have times that matched with mine. I had a story wrapped up in all of it too: the disease caused supers to slowly lose their ability to control their frenzies, and actually could cause mortals to frenzy. The Fire-touched were to blame, having discovered a spirit-plague that could infect everyone. The spirit-plague actually consisted of shards of an idigam. You can tell how that might go.
@arkandel said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
I of course forget the name right now but there was a MU* where all characters were mortals in a supernatural world, and it was fun while it lasted... but it definitely belonged in that generation of sandboxed games that didn't make a splash and died quietly after a while.
Bump In The Night is what you're probably thinking of. It had great players, a great wiki, and a great idea. The setup was a bit janky with the Conspiracies, however, and players lost interest in running plots for each other.
In response to @faraday, there is a problem when plots are not frequent or accessible enough, in that players will gravitate to where they get constant RP. If a game's direction is solely based on plots, you basically want to have those every other day, at least, to keep momentum going. If the plot-activity dwindles, I think you'll see a game that is most de-populated unless there's something happening, and that's that may discourage folks who like endless BarRP or social RP from coming by all the time.
I concur with Arkandel's conclusion that there has to be something to do outside of plots. In the Chronicles of Darkness, Vampire is good for this: you can play politics; you can debate philosophies; you can diddle with ghouls; etc. Changeling is also good for this: you can play through your creepiness; you can go on personal quests beyond the Thorns; you can play politics; etc. But Werewolf and Mage are centered upon plots, either as targets to kill or mysteries to solve, so, unsurprisingly, those two lines aren't as successful on MUSHes. Intra-racial tension is also a source of "something to do outside of plots," which is why I believe CoD/nWoD games have been somewhat less persistent than oWoD.
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@faraday said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
So I think we're generally in agreement that players need stuff to do or else you lose momentum. Just the execution is different.
Yes, so long as there is an execution. It takes active maintenance to create this momentum.
So for example a nWoD mortal only game could be a blast if metaplot is thrown to spark and maintain interest, maybe with some different factions of characters some trying to redeem the monsters ("she's still my wife!"), and others trying to kill'em all, or dissect them, or whatever the hell.
Simply putting all this stuff on a wiki pages simply doesn't do the trick. I kinda wish it did since it'd lower the bar for new game runners a lot, but historically it doesn't. Games need constant curating, and especially the newer ones; in fact the first month after they open is critical.
A mortal-only game where you're an X-Files or Fringe type of group could work, for instance. One where you've got a motley crew like my MDM game? Notsomuch.
All of these could work if they get players interested in the first place. It's a lot more niche though to ask players to roll on a setting they aren't familiar with and utilize concepts they've no existing samples to figure out the chemistry or subtle, slice-of-life interactions between them and something set in a world either very much like our own other than the supernatural elements added on top or based on well known works such as TV series, books, etc.
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@ganymede said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
Bump In The Night is what you're probably thinking of. It had great players, a great wiki, and a great idea. The setup was a bit janky with the Conspiracies, however, and players lost interest in running plots for each other.
Dammit - yep, that's it. I ran one of my all-time favorite PrPs there too - if anyone here remembers a plot where characters going to talk to an abused single mother in the thirteenth floor of a weird-ass building took them somewhere... else for a while.
In response to @faraday, there is a problem when plots are not frequent or accessible enough, in that players will gravitate to where they get constant RP.
Yep, and you even see it within games themselves. People migrate by rerolling away from inactive or poorly cared-for spheres all the time into more active ones, either as a result of staff changes or just circumstance. A good example is the effect a few new players rolling together into a faction has on existing ones jumping ship - and it makes sense; the best wiki ideas are useless if I'm sitting on my ass unable to find something to do.
The path of least resistance rules games. They aren't causes, they're entertainment. If it takes a lot of unrewarding effort to start something, chances are it won't get started.
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As a throw-out line, I remember when players decided to do things all on their own. Give a class full of artists a blank canvas and a goal and stand back.
Sometimes stand far back with a camera to film the drama, but hey.
I want to say that this habit was beaten out of them by staff for various reasons, but it also probably has a lot to do that we don't have the energy we used to. Kudos to those who do, but I get worn down by work on a regular basis and by the time I'm sitting here I don't want to worry about all the little things we worry about on Soapbox. Sometimes I want to sit down and see what comes of the play.
I can be pretty good at self-motivation when I'm not afraid of the consequences.
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@ganymede said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
Bump In The Night is what you're probably thinking of. It had great players, a great wiki, and a great idea. The setup was a bit janky with the Conspiracies, however, and players lost interest in running plots for each other.
It had another issue. This also comes back around to 'the limited resource that is STs', but that isn't the only problem it involves.
An event would get listed.
It would hit max player cap on signups x2 within an hour, often within minutes, by the same people every time. This list wouldn't be identical, no, but the same 10-12 names absolutely dominated the list for a long enough time that prevented other people from having much of a chance at involvement in any of those storylines.
These things were typically listed during the day -- just dumb luck, really, but that's how it tended to go. Anyone not on during the day had almost no chance to become involved early on.
This persisted long enough to be an issue.
Yes, more STs and more events would be a help -- but there were a fair number of them.
People not signing up for everything and blocking others from getting a chance to become involved? Would also have helped.
By the time anything was done about it -- some kind of policy went in, I just did the wiki and RPed so I don't recall what it was -- many people had already given up, and felt completely shut out.
Yes, more STs would have helped. Players being considerate of other players wanting to have a chance to become involved actually would have helped a hell of a lot more.
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@surreality said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
Players being considerate of other players wanting to have a chance to become involved actually would have helped a hell of a lot more.
Or, you know, staff stepping in and telling people: stop fucking hogging everything you asses.
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@ganymede They did, actually. People did not respond well. (ETA: As in, walked off with some 'fuck you!' thrown in here and there, or just stopped logging in.)
I think at some point they also did something with enormous ST XP benefits -- we're talking XP awards for STs that were running 3-6xp+/scene in CoD XP, for STs who were often running multiple scenes per week and piling on those quantities each time -- and that getting scaled back didn't help either, because some people felt entitled to those grossly inflated amounts; once they weren't getting them, they stopped. Which also says a lot, sadly.
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@surreality said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
They did, actually.
Good.
People did not respond well.
Tough shit.
I think at some point they also did something with enormous ST XP benefits -- we're talking XP awards for STs that were running 3-6xp+/scene in CoD XP, for STs who were often running multiple scenes per week and piling on those quantities each time -- and that getting scaled back didn't help either, because some people felt entitled to those grossly inflated amounts; once they weren't getting them, they stopped. Which also says a lot, sadly.
It does. It tells me that some WoD players are greedy, entitled fucks.
As I think I said before: we are to blame.
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@ganymede Srsly.
@surreality said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
By the time anything was done about it -- some kind of policy went in, I just did the wiki and RPed so I don't recall what it was -- many people had already given up, and felt completely shut out.
The consideration was a larger core problem, yes.
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I love PrPs. I love to run them, I greatly appreciate others running them for me... but it's not hogging that's the issue - from my perspective - but the sheer time requirement as more folks are added.
I don't want to whine how about I don't have as much time as I used to because it's not true, but I don't have as much any more in one block, and I need to be away from my computer by 11PM to get ready for bed. Therefore it's frustrating for me if an +event is set to start at say, 8PM (a common time for EST) and then by 10PM we've collectively only managed 2-3 poses because we're waiting on people to get through their turns. I also don't want to say that was a waste of my evening but... well, that sure doesn't make me feel I seized the day either.
However that... only seems to occur on nWoD games. I don't know why, or if it's anecdotal or... what. I ran a bunch of Arx scenes a while ago, some with 10+ people in them, and things flowed. I ran stuff on a comic MUSH I played briefly and they felt fine. A Star Wars plot with @Ganymede, @Maira and @Autumn? Same thing, progress was made and I never stared at the screen wondering what I'm doing with my life.
So... I don't know if this is relevant to this thread, but it's what I have.
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@arkandel said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
So... I don't know if this is relevant to this thread, but it's what I have.
Your point is a good observation, but, no, it's not relevant to the thread or to the current topic.
Surreality is talking about how the Usual Suspects began to eat up all of the available spots in +events on BITN, to the point where other players couldn't get involved in any plot.
I'm talking about how people who do that, and then bitch when staff curtail them so that others can play, are entitled shitbags. Also, the people who run plots only because they get phat l00t because of it.
I get what you're saying, but it's also why staff needs to step on the necks of people who are hogging the spotlight.
Fucking share, assholes.
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I played on VenusMUSH. It was both terrible and awesome. Vampires in space!
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@arkandel Agreed there, I remember running a tournament on Arx with a multiple bracket knock out jousting contest then a grand melee with over a dozen participants and it took less time than I have seen completly inconsquential stuff take in WoD, for some reason. It is not even down to code, the jousting was just people making rolls using a random system I threw together in advance.
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@packrat WoD somehow mires itself in so much mechanical bullshit an easy 30-minute fight turns into a spammy 5 hour fight and the ST is left with a headache at the end.
I've never been so tired as after STing a combat plot in WoD.
And Pendragon is about 3000x worse, for its fatality rate.
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@arkandel I noticed a difference too, with the pace being much slower on nWoD in my limited experiences there. I attributed the spacing to how the game system puts the impetus of managing rules more on the players themselves with it being less coded, which in turn I think emphasizes a strict pose order since the consequences of someone being skipped or passed over is much higher.
In a fully coded combat game, often a pose or emit would effectively be purely social, but in less coded non-consent environment where players are all expected to keep track of themselves rather than coded, that could mean they miss their round in combat or aren't given a fair shake. That in turn means it becomes expected out of politeness to be way more mindful of people's poses, which makes people much more reluctant to pose past someone being slow, which grinds the pace down. And then since everyone knows the pace will be slow, plays accordingly. In something more freeform or consent driven or non-consent but heavily coded, I don't think those consequences are a factor, so it might still be rude to talk over someone but it wouldn't have dramatic consequences for them if you do, so it's just not as big a sin and the culture embraces a faster pace accordingly.
To not be totally off topic and tie this to what Gany and Surr are talking about, I think the system then also rewards people for being a little pushy, in so much that everyone is expected to watch out for themselves in a way, which probably fosters that behavior that shows in entitled ways.
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@apos said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
I think emphasizes a strict pose order since the consequences of someone being skipped or passed over is much higher.
I've never played on WoD but I can agree with this sentiment in general. Even fully-coded FS3 combats take forever when people insist on following a pose order. Having automatic resolutions helps, of course, but the biggest bang for the buck comes from the fact that everyone is reacting to the same code results. Pose order doesn't really matter, and that means you can get through a 12-person combat round in about 15 minutes.
ETA: Even without code, I think you can get a lot of the same benefits if the system were simpler and all the players knew what to roll ahead of time.
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There seemed to be at least one character who seemed capable of doing everything on BitN. Had crazy amounts of all kinds of psychic abilities, enough to make me feel redundant, seemed to get up in every scene and make it focus on her, and seemed incapable of sharing the spotlight or letting other people's more reasonable expertise show.
It's a real shame because I liked the idea of the game a lot, the wiki was beautiful, and I really regretted it when things went sour for me there...which was not a fault of the staff or the way in which the game was executed.
I'd be happy to play my PC from there again if a similar version of the game returns.