The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?

Alzie

@griatch said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

tintin++ client which will interpret the semi-colon ; as a new client command

Except that has nothing to do with telnet and everything to do with a decision that the developer of Tintin++ made.

@faraday said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

A GUI, so I don't have to remember/type obscure command-line syntaxes just to do everyday stuff.

So a better Mu client, which has nothing to do with telnet.

Standard text formatting like bold and italics and links.

That can be done easily.

To edit a pose after I've posed it, like you can in any other forum or text chat program.

You have the same problems here with telnet that you do with any other platform really. Though certainly those problems will be easier to overcome without telnet.

Graphics embedded in descs and character profiles.

Already have graphics over telnet.

An integrated MUSH and wiki so you don't have to update your wiki page when in-game data changes.

Nothing to do with telnet. Based on how you design your data layer.

To configure a game without /grabbing attributes in obscure formats off of obscure objects.

Design decision.

To code in a normal programming language, not line-by-line interpreted commands pasted into a telnet client.

Again, design decision.

To play with a decent experience from a web browser, when I'm not at my normal computer.

Nothing to do with telnet.

This is really my problem any time this comes up. All of these things get listed and telnet gets blamed for them, but none of them have anything to do with telnet. Would it perhaps be easier to fix these things if you don't have to account for telnet? Sure. Of course it would.

I'm not saying that we need to keep telnet, but what I am saying is stop saying that telnet is the only reason we can't have these things. You know that's not true. If we want these things, we can do them now without erasing telnet. Would it require more work? Possibly.

Edit: As an actual productive suggestion, since that will be the next question posed, We could accomplish 90% of these things if we made a new mu client that wasn't from 1995. @Sparks has helped with a lot of this already with atlantis being modern, but not all platforms have a semi-decent modern client. Potato, even, was written in TCL and the interface definitely shows it.

faraday

@surreality said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

@faraday The sad thing is, so much of that can be done in mediawiki... except the chat part.

Eh, kinda but not really either. Maybe if you just want a super-simple lightly-coded one.

@Alzie - You're splitting hairs. I could implement a sophisticated communications protocol over an 8-bit serial bus too if I really wanted to but that would be supremely silly from a technical standpoint. Especially when standard web protocols do everything we need already.

The server-client protocol isn't even the biggest hangup, it's the MUSH clients. Maybe you expect somebody to invent new cross-platform MUSH clients across windows/mac/seventeen-flavors-of-mobile, but I don't. So what you're dubbing technically possible I say is largely impractical.

Griatch

@surreality

That chaff is demoralizing as hell, and it is not just a case of 'grow a thicker skin'. It is a lot of goddamned work, and it takes real positive energy and the ability to hope that it will make things at least just a little better in order to even attempt one of these things.

I'm not familiar with your project or the talk-downs you faced concerning it (sounds really disheartening). Maybe it could be an idea to collaborate with more people than fewer? From personal experience I can only say that developing code in the open as open-source (such as on Github) and finding people commenting on it or, even better, strangers volunteering to contribute to your code with code of their own is a real morale boost that I hope everyone gets to experience some time.
Unrelated to the current topic of telnet but still something to keep in mind: There are huge resources and free infrastructures to make it fun and motivating for developers of all kinds out there, outside the MU* hobby walls.
.
Griatch

surreality

@griatch In fairness... I've tried the more people thing. It didn't work. I appreciate the suggestion sincerely, though.

I am best described as 'not a coder at all'. I stumble through everything I do, digging everywhere for tutorials and just keep trying things until something finally works -- which takes forever, but I've gotten places with it.

99.99% of any discussion on github is so far over my head that I don't even feel my hair ruffle or feel a breeze. It only ends up making me feel more stupid and incapable, in the end. People ask what, to them, is an incredibly simple question, and I'm like '...was that English?' and then I go hide under the desk.

Griatch

@alzie

The 'issue with telnet', from the perspective of the server is indeed not the protocol itself but the inconsistency in the interfaces of the clients using it and the lack of standards when it comes to the mud-specific telnet extensions. This is a technical issue and it matters greatly for your development time if you can't be sure just how your fancy new design will show up in different clients.

If you make your own stand-alone telnet (or whatever protocol) client or dictate that your game only works with a single client of a specific version, design and specification, that'll indeed serve the same purpose as supplying a web client (assuming you make it cross-platform). Depending on how complex your designs you'll also need an update-infrastructure or otherwise make sure that your players all update their client down the line as you add new features or gui elements. Mudlet has this for plug-in GUIs as far as i know. Web clients have it natively.
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Griatch

Moonman

@apos said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

On the other hand, how many players do you want?

Infinite, ideally. That doesn't mean I want to be on a game with infinity players, but more roleplayers means more places to roleplay means more ways to do it means more themes and new angles and many modifications to old angles.

It's better than the alternative of the hobby being "niche," which means that you've got very limited options. Almost all active MU*'s today are either World of Darkness or some kind of capeshit, and I'm interested in neither lately. I'd love to see historical RP settings. I'd love to see more weird concept ones, like where they, instead of changing the world, change the structure of the RP; if you want to know what I mean by different structures, compare a tabletop RPG where your ST/GM/DM is physically present for all matters vs a MU* where they act more as moderators in many regards and stay out of the regular RP. There's a lot in RP to do that hasn't been hashed out yet, and that's in no small part because of how "niche" the hobby is.

@Rook

People are getting personally offended by the voicing of opinions, so it seems much less a technical discussion than it is a preference discussion.

This is as much if not more a preference discussion than anything. It is my personal preference that we continue to use MU*'s. However, the point of the thread is that it is my belief that the vast majority of the world prefers exactly the opposite. I have had to deal with people's reluctance to use command lines over the years, and it's so dramatic that I'm convinced they'd reject free money if it meant spending more than a few minutes actually using a command line; that software with literal mind-reading and fellatio functions would be turned away if it meant you had to type in read mind=me or suck dick=me or whatever. People fucking hate command lines, and this isn't limited to idiots. So I think that we are behooved to take seriously this reality.

magee101

@rook said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

What I'm asking is: How would you completely redo MU* so that it is not command>output in two windows? Is that even a goal here?

I am not a coder, I am ignorant of these newer playforms Ares and such, but this part right here, input>output that stuff, how would we be able to say that it is a MU of any form if it was not this way? Idk about telnet but I do know about roleplay as GM on roll20 I think we are missing only one thing and that is voice communication, but ww have Discord/skype a thousand options. But not everyone wants to do voice, voice also dramaticallycan slow down the pacing of a session. This hobby, text based rolellay, is not something that is drastically going to change, or it wouls not be this hobby. If there were no games like these I would just be forced to play on roll20 for my RP.

Tabletopping is coming back in general culture right this very second, I think the best thing ww cam do as a community is just ride that wave. Know a buddy into dnd? Show him your mush. Every person I know irl I have shown and while I have yet to convert anyone that is because it is not their style.

Reading and writing is hard, though we take this for granted as we are skilled in it and enjoy it as this is our hobby, our lives, but others may not like to read, or they do not like to type. If we remove input>output what do we become? A video game. Do you know why I do not play most video game rpgs? Limitations on immersion, I CANNOT go where I want when I want or attempt anything at any time. I am stuck doing what a coder has decided is avaliable to do, my character is a representation of someone else's imagination.

I don't know if the hobby is dying, it seems about the same size and difficulty to find games as it did almost 20 years ago when I started, what I have seen is a migration away from the rp based systems (mush/mux etc) to muds or forum play because of reasons stated earlier in this thread. If it is dying? Enjoy the ride, we have one life. If it isn't? Grab a friend or two and try to get them to sit down with you as your friend and play with you once a week or something.

Moonman

@magee101 said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

I don't know if the hobby is dying, it seems about the same size and difficulty to find games as it did almost 20 years ago when I started, what I have seen is a migration away from the rp based systems (mush/mux etc) to muds or forum play because of reasons stated earlier in this thread. If it is dying? Enjoy the ride, we have one life. If it isn't? Grab a friend or two and try to get them to sit down with you as your friend and play with you once a week or something.

Roleplay is not dying, but I think MU*ing is.

Thenomain

@moonman said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

@apos said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

On the other hand, how many players do you want?

Infinite, ideally.

This is the scale for operating systems, or transportation, or video games as an entire industry. This is the kind of thing I would want out of a project trying to replace telnet, but few people in this thread see that as a goal. This kind of goal means that you want to see a change in how online text-based role-play is accomplished.

Hold on, I have something about this in my files...

alt text

Honestly, the only people who are doing what you're saying are @faraday, @Griatch, and @Ashen-Shugar. The rest of us are along for the ride.

It's better than the alternative of the hobby being "niche,"

Niche is something that happens. Muds and Mushes have the potential of having "infinite" hobbyists opening new games, dorking around, and so forth. A better question would be: Why is it niche? c.f. the above three names for some of the more informed answers, but I don't believe that "The Death Of Telnet" is why.

I mean, for instance, you are on a forum formed by and for people who play Muds and Mushes. You may expect a little bit of confusion and squinting and challenging of your thesis.

Almost all active MU*'s today are either World of Darkness or some kind of capeshit, and I'm interested in neither lately.

So make another game. "It's too hard." Then start a 4-chan RP play by post. "I don't want to." Nnnnnghhhhh....

There's a lot in RP to do that hasn't been hashed out yet, and that's in no small part because of how "niche" the hobby is.

I think it's already been fairly well established that:

a) There are options to Muds/Mushes.
b) There are people working on your complaints, and you should absolutely help them out by supporting them with your time, effort, and/or enthusiasm.

More the second than the first.

By a factor of a thousand.

My advice? Do that.

magee101

@moonman I meant to imply that the hobby is MU* not roleplay

Moonman

@thenomain said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

So make another game. "It's too hard." Then start a 4-chan RP play by post. "I don't want to." Nnnnnghhhhh....

Who says I haven't?

@magee101 said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

@moonman I meant to imply that the hobby is MU* not roleplay

I really do think MU*ing is on its way out, which sucks, because I love doing it.

Kanye Qwest

@moonman I think mileage varies. We get new players - like new to the MU hobby entirely - on a fairly regular basis. Not sure what our retention rate is, but there is interest.

Thenomain

@moonman said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

@thenomain said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

So make another game. "It's too hard." Then start a 4-chan RP play by post. "I don't want to." Nnnnnghhhhh....

Who says I haven't?

Who says you have?

(See, anyone can play.)

RnMissionRun

@moonman said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

@apos said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

On the other hand, how many players do you want?

Infinite, ideally. That doesn't mean I want to be on a game with infinity players, but more roleplayers means more places to roleplay means more ways to do it means more themes and new angles and many modifications to old angles.

It's better than the alternative of the hobby being "niche," which means that you've got very limited options. Almost all active MU*'s today are either World of Darkness or some kind of capeshit, and I'm interested in neither lately. I'd love to see historical RP settings. I'd love to see more weird concept ones, like where they, instead of changing the world, change the structure of the RP; if you want to know what I mean by different structures, compare a tabletop RPG where your ST/GM/DM is physically present for all matters vs a MU* where they act more as moderators in many regards and stay out of the regular RP. There's a lot in RP to do that hasn't been hashed out yet, and that's in no small part because of how "niche" the hobby is.

@Rook

People are getting personally offended by the voicing of opinions, so it seems much less a technical discussion than it is a preference discussion.

This is as much if not more a preference discussion than anything. It is my personal preference that we continue to use MU*'s.

Fortunately there's plenty of room in the hobby for both extremes to coexist. People should make the game they want, with the features they want, and let people who want something different, have what they want, too.

magee101

@moonman and if it is? Oh well enjoy the ride. You are not going fo see it shrivel up and die next week, maybe in ten years, maybe even longer. I know I will continue to MU until I die.

I think the biggest problem with tabletop MU is what was stated just a bit ago where our Staff are moderators for the most part which leaves players having to make their own games to a degree, this is why Iron Realms has 100s of players across their games bc they have a game to go play and waste time on. (I am currently awaiting their new release Starmourn). Sure they have a client that is a bit more what has been proposed in this thread but the core is still input>output. And there is rp to be had in these locations, not at the pace those of us from tabletop MUs are used to but its there!

MU is not dying, tabletop and freeform non-coded games are what is phasing out

surreality

And this is where I tune right out of the thread. Cheers, y'all.

Sparks

@faraday said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

@Alzie - You're splitting hairs. I could implement a sophisticated communications protocol over an 8-bit serial bus too if I really wanted to but that would be supremely silly from a technical standpoint. Especially when standard web protocols do everything we need already.

The server-client protocol isn't even the biggest hangup, it's the MUSH clients. Maybe you expect somebody to invent new cross-platform MUSH clients across windows/mac/seventeen-flavors-of-mobile, but I don't. So what you're dubbing technically possible I say is largely impractical.

Moreover, people will not change from their current clients. I see people complain about how SimpleMU doesn't support https links and 256-color, but still refuse to change to Potato.

So even if you write a client that supports music and sound and graphics and VR—witness Pueblo—and even if it was available on Windows, Mac, and Linux, lots of people still won't switch to it because it's not the client they are used to using.

But everyone has a web browser already. Everyone's already used to using the web browser for wiki, for web forums, and so on. This is part of why web is pointed to as a low bar to entry for a new paradigm of MU*ing.

ThatGuyThere

@moonman said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

Should we even jump ships, or accept our fall into extreme RP obscurity?

This is pretty much my vote. I prefer text based and real time to the other options. I have no desire to have voice RP with strangers nor to give other people the ability to spam a scene with pictures or memes, I figure I will ride the ship down til I can't find a game I like with double digit players.
When that happens I will likely just start up a table top in the middle of the week, since I know a fair number of player around me who want to table top but don't want to give up a weekend day.

Thenomain

@sparks said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

Everyone's already used to using the web browser for wiki

For using, yes. For coding, no. And this is something that we're slowly going toward. Evennia and Ares require a shift in how we code. The heavy use of MediaWiki that some games are getting into require a new kind of support staffer.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am half saying that change is more than just going to a browser, and that change is already happening as we want more out of our experience.

I have re-compiled Mux twice in the last two games I've coded on because they didn't include SQL. Why? It's not because they don't want change, but because they don't know what change means what, nor the technical skills required for it.

I sincerely think that @surreality could make extra cash doing all the insanely code-specific MediaWiki things for all these games.

I think we are changing. I just don't think we're changing overnight.

Sparks

@thenomain said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

@sparks said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

Everyone's already used to using the web browser for wiki

For using, yes. For coding, no. And this is something that we're slowly going toward. Evennia and Ares require a shift in how we code.

Well, I don't feel the same interface you use to play should be the same interface you use to code, honestly. (Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by this? I grant I may be.)

I mean, to my mind, one of the best things about Evennia or Ares is that I can use real development tools. I would argue that being able to use PyCharm or RubyMine as an IDE and step debug my code in an actual honest to god debugger is an immense step forward compared to setting an object TRACE, VERBOSE, and PUPPET and letting the spam wash over me.

And moreover, coding separately from the game interface frankly encourages a sandbox rather than just changing the game live; I can have my game in github or bitbucket or gitlab, make changes and try them on my local sandbox copy, find they work, push it to git, pull it on production, and reload the game. If something goes horribly wrong, I can relatively easily roll it back through the magic of source control.