Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles

[Thenomain]

Okay, here's a place to talk about the new Changeling. I mean, a lot of this information is available for free on the Onyx Path website, or will be easily passed around by Kickstarter backers like yours truly.

There's also a lot of things that people will gripe about. For instance, I see a lot of things that hearken back to the original Changeling. Welcome back, Sidhe! How we didn't miss thee.

[Deleted]

Can you give some details about how they're going back to oWoD Changeling? What they're bringing back?

[Arkandel]

@thenomain As an onlooker, my main question is... is the system close to being finalized? Is there a date for when it'll be released?

I don't know if there's an 101 on this somewhere.

[Thenomain]

In Editing at last Monday Meeting: Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition, featuring the Huntsmen Chronicle (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)

Their Kickstarter suggested August 2018, so GenCon.

I'll look into their documentation to express why I feel they're trying to bring back some themes from CtD. My biggest one is that Fairest are described as leaders, leading leaderly, with apparently zero mechanics to back this up. Not the "we are the leaders of everything or else" from oChangeling, but it's one red flag among a few others.

[Deleted]

The prettiest are always in charge. It's going to be the new status mechanic in Changeling where your position in society is based on how many beauty points you bought. It will be using a hybrid FATAL system.

[Thenomain]

@admiral

Except not. The Seemings are now your strongest personality trait and therefore the one that got you out of Arcadia. Fairest are being re-branded as getting out of Arcadia because of their planning and leadership.

I consider this a step backwards, as the Fairest in CtL1e could be right assholes about being the prettiest, which I liked quite a lot. It had nothing to do with anything else at all, and was what you made of it.

[Alzie]

@arkandel according to onyx path it is in post editing.

So anywhere from 6 months to 6 years.

[Misadventure]

So what they are when they return is not just remains of what they were while they were in Arcadia. That feels like a huge change. Maybe not.

But if being Sidhe is about how you escaped, then the whole core sounds like it will not be about what was done to you in Arcadia.

[Arkandel]

@alzie said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

@arkandel according to onyx path it is in post editing.

So anywhere from 6 months to 6 years.

Given its current state would you say the system is likely to change that much in post-production? So if a MUSH wanted to use it, does it sound 'safe' they won't need to backtrack much?

[Ganymede]

I'm pretty sure that I could spit out an edition quicker than them.

[Auspice]

Is anyone else laughing at the idea of them actually 'editing' one of their books?

[ThatGuyThere]

@thenomain said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

The Seemings are now your strongest personality trait and therefore the one that got you out of Arcadia.

This one sentence is why I have no interest in Changeling 2.0, one of the things I find appealing about Changeling is the open endedness of what you can put together but now to be an Ogre you had to get out though strength. Of course it doesn't help that I tend to make characters that play against type. For example my current Changeling PC who is an Ogre that escaped Arcadia via trickeration is impossible, or any of a dozen viable examples that could be but can't because of the seeming thing.

It hearkens back to the one thing that absolutely ruins Werewolf 2.0 for me, your tribe is defined by your preferred play, that is great on the surface but ruins the game for me because the spirit side of things has always been my favorite part of werewolf, yet i have no interest in playing a Bone Shadow, they just don't appeal to me, so Yay I am effectively cut off from playing in the part of the world I like most.

[Thenomain]

@ganymede said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

I'm pretty sure that I could spit out an edition quicker than them.

I'm pretty sure that you have.

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@auspice said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

Is anyone else laughing at the idea of them actually 'editing' one of their books?

They're far better than they used to be. This isn't saying that they're good, but there has been a distinct improvement.

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@thatguythere said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

@thenomain said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

The Seemings are now your strongest personality trait and therefore the one that got you out of Arcadia.

This one sentence is why I have no interest in Changeling 2.0, one of the things I find appealing about Changeling is the open endedness of what you can put together but now to be an Ogre you had to get out though strength.

I have misgivings on that as well but like I said above, you have to take it with a fresh look.

For instance, you are drawing parallels from CtL1e and 2e. You can't. Seemings are now personality types, not physical archetypes. Your statement about Ogres is now more accurately: "To get out through strength makes you an Ogre."

The Kith is now your primary form. You can be a short stubby kudzu-person and be an Ogre, because you're all about the prying strength of plants.

The potential problem with this is that CtL1e approached this in a far more natural manner: When we think about 'what is an ogre', we have something in mind that links appearance and behavior. This is my problem with Fairest.

What this does give you, however, is the kind of flexibility people annoyingly shoe-horned into the Kith system. Dual-kith, triple-kith, kith evolution, good effing lord people pick a story and stick with it! I understand why people didn't want to, between lame Kith bonuses and not the creativity of the game creators to create, e.g., a Lightning-bug Kith who powers her own inventions with her Kardashian-eque butt.

Well now you're not stuck. So there you go.

[ThatGuyThere]

@thenomain said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

For instance, you are drawing parallels from CtL1e and 2e. You can't. Seemings are now personality types, not physical archetypes. Your statement about Ogres is now more accurately: "To get out through strength makes you an Ogre."

The Kith is now your primary form. You can be a short stubby kudzu-person and be an Ogre, because you're all about the prying strength of plants.

Well unless the change the system pretty radically I am assuming Seemings will have affinity contracts much like Clans still have in clan disciplines, etc.
So my concern is if I want to play someone super strong but did not escape Arcadia through strength how easily can that be done, and how disadvantaged will that character be compared to Person who escaped Arcadia through strength that also wants to be super strong.
It is is a small increase in xp cost no worries, if it is more onerous or even impossible then my thoughts on the game top out at meh.
I will likely never make a character who escaped from Arcadia using their greatest strength, that just has no interest for me, so if that is where the game line is headed that is fine but it also means I know not to bother with the game.
For me the fun of changeling is succeeding how you want despite the fact you were built to do other things, my ogre tries to out think problems even though he knows that is he bad at it and hates using his strength unless it is to defend someone else, because he sees it as Them winning because he is becoming more like what They made.

[Thenomain]

@thatguythere said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

Well unless the change the system pretty radically I am assuming Seemings will have affinity contracts much like Clans still have in clan disciplines, etc.

With a Seeming, you get a Contract bonus for free. For instance, Fairest get the 'also invisible while walking through walls' with the Separation contract, while Ogres would have to pay XP for it.

Also, Contracts are no longer 1-5. They are now a list of disparate powers. Some have levels, but each power is its own Contract. Therefore, no more needing to buy 'make it rain' before you can buy 'heal somebody'.

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edit, because I don't read things sometimes:

I will likely never make a character who escaped from Arcadia using their greatest strength, that just has no interest for me, so if that is where the game line is headed that is fine but it also means I know not to bother with the game.

One of the many, many things people did not read in CtL, even though it was there in black and white, is that to come back from Arcadia, you'd need the emotional strength and to have something to come back to.

This was a missed opportunity; if CtL had Fetters or Keystones or something I wouldn't have been surprised, but I don't think it would have added to the ongoing gameplay.

Now instead of coming back out of desire (this is a game of desire, remember), you come back because of something inside of you. It was inside of you all along! I can't fault anyone for writing this, tho I still think this was a limiting decision.

And you can damn well bet that I might make a Fairest who has a spark of leadership but also has a horrible self-esteem and keeps getting in their own way. Or an Ogre who doesn't like using their strength to solve problems no matter how handy it is. Also, you may want to read the actual words in the actual book before deciding that my summary is a reason to not even consider someone else's work.

I'm a paraphraser, not a reviewer.

[Derp]

I think that people are reading things a bit too narrowly. Leadership doesn't necessarily mean position. Leadership can be leading by example, or grassroots type stuff. I think it's more of a force of personality mechanic than a 'you get the Crown by default because you're hot' mechanic. There's a lot of ways that you can slice this.

And your Seeming has kind of always been dominated by your personality anyway, in one form or another. Whatever purpose you were put to is more often than not whatever your Keeper thought you would be good for based on what they observed. It might be a twisted version, but it's not exactly completely out of bounds, either.

I've seen this complaint about the other 2E gamelines, too, where people are like 'argh they changed this and now I hate it'. Except often, that thing has always been there, it's just never been at the forefront. It's always been in the text somewhere, but not as highlighted. I think that most of the stuff I read in Changeling so far backs up those same basic principles.

Those basic principles are often just ignored on MUs to the point where people think they aren't the norm, when they really were supposed to be all along, so re-reading them has a certain level of shock factor.

[ThatGuyThere]

@thenomain said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

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edit, because I don't read things sometimes:

I will likely never make a character who escaped from Arcadia using their greatest strength, that just has no interest for me, so if that is where the game line is headed that is fine but it also means I know not to bother with the game.

One of the many, many things people did not read in CtL, even though it was there in black and white, is that to come back from Arcadia, you'd need the emotional strength and to have something to come back to.

Yes but emotional strength and connection to Earth he want to get back to does not equal escaped by using what he was game mechanically inclined towards(What I would term as any characters greatest strength). My current PC as many reasons for for the strong connection to Earth exactly none of them have any connection to his mechanics, except one of his skill specs that I have not rolled for in years of playing him because it was one I knew had almost zero change of ever being applicable in a scene. (But skill specs are cheap enough to be throw away things.)
My issue comes down to can I play person with X powers that used other thing Y to escape, and how much of a mechanical disadvantage if any does that bring. Story is it's own thing separate from mechanics, although I do think the two should compliment each other.

[Thenomain]

@thatguythere

Agreed. And we'll see how the Mu* community takes it. I mean, there's theme and there's mechanics and White Wolf/Onyx Path have not been very good at fusing the two since nWoD. I suspect it will be easy to ignore, or that people won't particularly care if you make up the reason you came out an Ogre.

So far Seeming has only two mechanical effects, the freebies on matching Contracts, and what causes you to more easily gain or lose Clarity.

So, Clarity is now a health track. Your ability to keep your head level is wavers from day to day, much like oChangeling, but without the 'Banality' bollocks. I consider that a plus, at least.

[Ganymede]

@thenomain said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

What this does give you, however, is the kind of flexibility people annoyingly shoe-horned into the Kith system. Dual-kith, triple-kith, kith evolution, good effing lord people pick a story and stick with it! I understand why people didn't want to, between lame Kith bonuses and not the creativity of the game creators to create, e.g., a Lightning-bug Kith who powers her own inventions with her Kardashian-eque butt.

They had a perfectly good idea in Demon: The Descent, and they just forgot about it, apparently.

The "flexibility" in Changeling regarding multi-kithing can be replaced simply and easily with a set of "advantages" that you can pick up at certain Wyrd levels. How those advantages manifest is completely up to the player, within the confines of his Seeming's "concept."

Simple. Easy. Flexible.

Forgotten.

[ThatGuyThere]

@thenomain said in Changeling the Lost 2e: The Huntsman Chronicles:

So, Clarity is now a health track. Your ability to keep your head level is wavers from day to day, much like oChangeling, but without the 'Banality' bollocks. I consider that a plus, at least.

Now this part I really like, kind of like an emotional health track. One of the things I really love about the fate system is how stress tracks allow the abstraction and modeling of non-physical damage. I.e. a nasty argument with a friend can have a (sometimes lasting) mechanical impact on a character. Edit: Also adds to making the characters feel more real, I am sure I am not the only one who has gone out and done something stupid after an argument because my brain was still swimming in the emotions of the fight and later regretted it.
Or like in Diaspora where a ship has an economic stress track so you can do a we have to take seedy jobs to stay flying story without it beginning all about actual number crunching.