MSB, SJW, and other acronyms

Ganymede · Jul 20, 2018, 7:12 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

I get that. But it's still just being disagreed with hyperbolically on the internet.

When the hyperbole is pointless, then the only thing it can do is risk offending someone.

I think what Faraday is getting at, and what I would advocate, is for people to simply understand that, at times, hyperbole is going to be received as offensive. On the flip side, I think it is reasonable to ask that people react to hyperbole that is offensive in a way that isn't going to escalate the situation.

All you can really do is ask, and try to do unto others.

friendlybee · Jul 20, 2018, 7:12 PM

Absolutely, that seems very reasonable to me. the majority of my position has been 'Calm down about people disagreeing with you online everyone. It's not the end of the world.'

Haven · Jul 20, 2018, 7:13 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

(hogpiling?)

This is now officially a thing. Danke.

Ganymede · Jul 20, 2018, 7:15 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Absolutely, that seems very reasonable to me. the majority of my position has been 'Calm down about people disagreeing with you online everyone. It's not the end of the world.'

In response to that, I would say: that's one part of it.

The other part is: if arguing on the internet is pointless, then so is hyperbole; type clearly and concisely if you are actually trying to say something meaningful.

friendlybee · Jul 20, 2018, 7:19 PM

@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Absolutely, that seems very reasonable to me. the majority of my position has been 'Calm down about people disagreeing with you online everyone. It's not the end of the world.'

In response to that, I would say: that's one part of it.

The other part is: if arguing on the internet is pointless, then so is hyperbole; type clearly and concisely if you are actually trying to say something meaningful.

I guess. I disagree with you there. To me it's more this:

There is a social cost with being an asshole (using sjw as a pejorative, saying the c-word, etc.). If you don't want to pay the social cost of being an asshole (being made fun of, ostracism, hyperbolically negative replies, etc.) then don't be an asshole.

Auspice · Jul 20, 2018, 7:20 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

someone using SJW (a person who has chosen to not be a dickwad online)

One could argue the usage of 'dick' there is utilizing a gendered slur and thus we have come full circle.

And many of the people who label themselves 'SJW' can be very violent, threatening individuals. Oh, sure, they avoid gendered, homophobic, transphobic, and racial slurs, but there are those who will dox people, stalk them, threaten them, and engage in other forms of utterly gross behavior.

I recently reported a woman to Twitter (who did, indeed, acknowledge that it was out of line) because she was harassing Terry Crews for being 'just out for a quick dollar' for speaking out about his sexual harassment. In many of her posts to him, she was outright telling him to kill himself. But her profile proudly proclaimed her as a feminist and SJW.

So yes, for many people, SJW is a bad thing nowadays. It is not 'someone who just doesn't behave poorly online' because many, many who call themselves that do.

friendlybee · Jul 20, 2018, 7:25 PM

@auspice said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

someone using SJW (a person who has chosen to not be a dickwad online)

One could argue the usage of 'dick' there is utilizing a gendered slur and thus we have come full circle.

And many of the people who label themselves 'SJW' can be very violent, threatening individuals. Oh, sure, they avoid gendered, homophobic, transphobic, and racial slurs, but there are those who will dox people, stalk them, threaten them, and engage in other forms of utterly gross behavior.

I recently reported a woman to Twitter (who did, indeed, acknowledge that it was out of line) because she was harassing Terry Crews for being 'just out for a quick dollar' for speaking out about his sexual harassment. In many of her posts to him, she was outright telling him to kill himself. But her profile proudly proclaimed her as a feminist and SJW.

So yes, for many people, SJW is a bad thing nowadays. It is not 'someone who just doesn't behave poorly online' because many, many who call themselves that do.

Someone claiming to represent a group =/= what the group represents. Harassing a victim of unwanted sexual contact for speaking out is not at all in line with the ideals of social justice or really even being a good person.

There are violent jerks in every subgroup. They do not tend to define the subgroup, unless the subgroup itself is founded on violent, jerk-like beliefs (see: white supremacists, etc.)

I'll give you dickwad and retract that - with the understanding that you are able to understand the difference between a gendered insult toward a man and a gendered insult toward a woman based on the historical power disparity there. Being a dick doesn't prevent you from getting promotions, and is frequently seen as a positive quality in a powerful person who 'gets stuff done'. Being a c-word is never a good thing. This false equivalency is kind of lame and very played out in tyool 2018.

faraday · Jul 20, 2018, 7:29 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Sure it's happened in the past, but.. it didn't happen this time...There is a social cost with being an asshole (using sjw as a pejorative, saying the c-word, etc.). If you don't want to pay the social cost of being an asshole (being made fun of, ostracism, hyperbolically negative replies, etc.) then don't be an asshole.

I wasn't speaking of just this one instance though. As I've stated before - I thought this was a more general thread. And, as others have mentioned - at the moment there really isn't much (if any) social cost to being a jerk. All that happens is threads get turned into dumpster fires and then shuffled off to the hog pit.

There are many folks here who have no problem with that. To wit...

@haven said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

I don't come here for useful information. I come for the GIFs, bad descs, and the shitposting. I can F5 for 10 hours in this place and never be disappointed.

But there are others that do have a problem with it. Hence the discussion thread.

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

the majority of my position has been 'Calm down about people disagreeing with you online everyone. It's not the end of the world.'

While I agree that it's not the end of the world, it's also not pleasant. I have better things to do with my time than to come to a place where I'm going to be treated disrespectfully. If we can have civil discussions, as the current forum rules dictate we should be able to have, then I'm all for that. If it's just going to be like Facebook comments where people shout obscenities to each other about how wrong they are? No thanks.

friendlybee · Jul 20, 2018, 7:34 PM

I realize you aren't talking about just this instance, but.. that's the only one that started this thread. And it's the only one I've discussed. By all means, if you want to discuss other instances? Please bring them up here! I'm sure people will be more than willing to talk about those and how to improve.

That said, in response to your last paragraph:

Your mental health is more important than the latest gossip about which 6 dicked Crinos BSD player is banging which of the latest crop of Arx Princesses this week and why that's a really bad thing for the community. Stay out of the Hog Pit, and have staff dish out bans/deletions when people do weird stuff outside of it. I've been lurking for a while and I haven't really seen it. It's definitely been a thing in the past, but the quoted post on page 1 that Ark used as an example was certainly not an example of hogpiling in any way, shape, or form. And that was FROM the hog pit!

Auspice · Jul 20, 2018, 7:35 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Someone claiming to represent a group =/= what the group represents. Harassing a victim of unwanted sexual contact for speaking out is not at all in line with the ideals of social justice or really even being a good person.
There are violent jerks in every subgroup. They do not tend to define the subgroup, unless the subgroup itself is founded on violent, jerk-like beliefs (see: white supremacists, etc.)

And yet that is what a good number of political disagreements come down to. It's what a lot of things on these boards come down to.

@Templari brought it up early on. We witnessed it again later.

Right-wing supremacists are terrible. Even most conservatives will agree to that. Yet there are very public places on the internet where all you see is 'All conservatives/Republicans/Centrists/Libertarians are idiots/racists/nazis/etc'.

In this day and age, people believe that the subset is the entire group. That even if the main group decries them, works against them, routes them at, the main group is still, in the end, at fault. I mean, churches like Westboro have, for many, come to define Christianity despite the fact that true Christians utterly loathe them as well.

It does not matter that 'SJW' had good "intentions," it has become sullied. So, so many people have seen vicious, terrible attacks. Been viciously, terribly attacked themselves that they want nothing to do with the term. That they immediately shy away from anyone who will bear it 'loud and proud' because to them that's a warning sign already.

faraday · Jul 20, 2018, 7:36 PM

@friendlybee - I already do stay out of the hog pit, but thank you for the suggestion. And the moderators are already well aware of the types of threads I'm referring to, since they're the ones moving them to the hog pit. I really see no value in hunting them down so people can debate each one individually. If you haven't seen it? Great. But it definitely exists.

friendlybee · Jul 20, 2018, 7:39 PM

@auspice said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Someone claiming to represent a group =/= what the group represents. Harassing a victim of unwanted sexual contact for speaking out is not at all in line with the ideals of social justice or really even being a good person.
There are violent jerks in every subgroup. They do not tend to define the subgroup, unless the subgroup itself is founded on violent, jerk-like beliefs (see: white supremacists, etc.)

And yet that is what a good number of political disagreements come down to. It's what a lot of things on these boards come down to.

@Templari brought it up early on. We witnessed it again later.

Right-wing supremacists are terrible. Even most conservatives will agree to that. Yet there are very public places on the internet where all you see is 'All conservatives/Republicans/Centrists/Libertarians are idiots/racists/nazis/etc'.

In this day and age, people believe that the subset is the entire group. That even if the main group decries them, works against them, routes them at, the main group is still, in the end, at fault. I mean, churches like Westboro have, for many, come to define Christianity despite the fact that true Christians utterly loathe them as well.

It does not matter that 'SJW' had good "intentions," it has become sullied. So, so many people have seen vicious, terrible attacks. Been viciously, terribly attacked themselves that they want nothing to do with the term. That they immediately shy away from anyone who will bear it 'loud and proud' because to them that's a warning sign already.

This isn't really the place for the political direction you're attempting to take this conversation. I'd readily welcome some PMs, or a post in the politics subforum though. There was no evidence of the insane psychopathy you are attempting to paint people who don't want to be called the c-word with in the thread that's being discussed. Nor have I seen evidence of it on these forums.

@faraday said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee - I already do stay out of the hog pit, but thank you for the suggestion. And the moderators are already well aware of the types of threads I'm referring to, since they're the ones moving them to the hog pit. I really see no value in hunting them down so people can debate each one individually. If you haven't seen it? Great. But it definitely exists.

If you don't want to provide evidence that's fine, but it doesn't make your arguments very compelling. I'm not trying to be rude, but I've asked two or three people for examples now, and they've been unable to provide them. It's starting to look like maybe this problem is imagined more than experienced.

Insomnia · Jul 20, 2018, 7:39 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Like you said, it's kind of hard to avoid 'dogpiling' if your definition of dogpiling is 'multiple people disagree with me'. I don't feel that to be a useful definition.

That would appear to be your definition of it, as you have brought it up multiple times now, however it is not what I am saying, or I would have said as much.

friendlybee · Jul 20, 2018, 7:40 PM

What're you saying then?

Kanye Qwest · Jul 20, 2018, 7:42 PM

@auspice dick is a gendered insult, but I have yet to see anyone politely ask others not to call them a dick because it's gendered and that's not cool and be laughed at. Wee little straw man, there.

Ganymede · Jul 20, 2018, 7:42 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

I'm not trying to be rude, but I've asked two or three people for examples now, and they've been unable to provide them. It's starting to look like maybe this problem is imagined more than experienced.

Examples are not the same as evidence.

Faraday's point is clear to me: why should I spend my time nattering with assholes? It seems like a silly thing to do, if one wishes to avoid them.

We all know how the Hog Pit works. Since you're new, you're probably not seeing how the toxicity consistently bleeds from there into other places, like here, in the Mildly Constructive area. But this is something we've talked about before.

So, your lack of evidence is more of an absence of experience to me.

surreality · Jul 20, 2018, 7:42 PM

Some of us still chose to change 'don't be a dick' to something else in our files regardless.

faraday · Jul 20, 2018, 7:44 PM

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

If you don't want to provide evidence that's fine, but it doesn't make your arguments very compelling. I'm not trying to be rude, but I've asked two or three people for examples now, and they've been unable to provide them. It's starting to look like maybe this problem is imagined more than experienced.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. If you really care to research, you can find tons of discussion around the issues in this thread. I can't really go and look up the ones that got moved to the hog pit to cite them for you because, as mentioned, I don't participate in the hog pit. I can't see those posts any more. But anybody who's been here for any length of time has seen this happen repeatedly. The Arx thread, the UH thread, the OC thread... I could go on and on.

Haven · Jul 20, 2018, 7:45 PM

@surreality said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Some of us still chose to change 'don't be a dick' to something else in our files regardless.

Unfortunately, the best insults involve genitalia and/or holes.

It's an age-old problem. No other body parts sound as snarky.

"Don't be such a gallbladder, you festering hang-nail!"

surreality · Jul 20, 2018, 7:46 PM

@haven Asshole works, and everyone has one.