@insomnia said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@arkandel said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@lisse24 said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

That being said, dogpiling does happen on this forum, a lot.

It does. And I want to come up with a way to address it that's not worse than the original problem.

Having been dog-piled on, on former iterations of the board, for game stuff, not social stuff, I'm not entirely sure not dog-piling is possible. I mean the very first versions of the board were ostensibly made to post about the shitty / stupid things staff were doing on WoD games so people could mock and laugh at them. Dog-piling has been in every form of the forums, even IGU, though not nearly as bad. It's part of the DNA of the board. Sure, the discussions have been added to since that time, but they in no means have moved on. Especially since we, as a community hold on to grudges in a way that is in no way healthy.

Not saying it's a good thing, but it's still a thing. And let's face it joking about it being 1995 again or not, it doesn't change the fact that people being fired / removed from games because of whatever version of the board there is has been a thing. An extreme, stupid thing, but a thing because dog-piling has been a thing since the start in one form or another.

Plus I mean, Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory and all...

Because really, what are the consequences if you are an asshole to someone on the forum? Even getting booted isn't a deterrent for some people or you guys wouldn't need a thread that someone has been banned, again, getting updated every so often.

Like you said, it's kind of hard to avoid 'dogpiling' if your definition of dogpiling is 'multiple people disagree with me'. I don't feel that to be a useful definition.

I understand that it can go to extreme lengths and end up being very unpleasant, but 'I can't convince this person that I'm correct' seems to be enough to bring out claims of dogpiling. I think a better definition is needed, and this thread seems like it was designed to allow for that discussion.

@three-eyed-crow said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee
Yeah, I mean, if you look at the member list, the majority of users registered lurk and don't post a ton, which is most forums. I think it's interesting to read what someone uninvolved in the same fight 20 times thinks, because it's probably not wrapped up in petty grudges from that asshole who upvoted a post where somebody was mean about me that time or whatever.

Yeah, I dunno. I guess I've seen some slapfights, but it feels to me more like 'omg its the 6 fingered man making a post! I must defeat them now!!!' more than 'these posts are particularly vitriolic and negative to a degree that demands almost 300 posts about whether its ok to have more than one person disagree with an opinion'.

People are mad because mu*ers have been mad for decades because we're all miserable weirdos. That's why we play online TT nerd games where we pretend to be sexy vampires.

And like you said. Posters can't even deal with being DOWNVOTED. The least in your face version of disagreement. The problem is that a lot of people on this forum seem to be very inured to the idea that they can say and do whatever they want, and anyone saying that they disagree is the same as a punch in the face, or government censorship.

I think that's silly.

@deadculture said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@kanye-qwest Fair point. Like I said, I can't drink, so I'm hitting the gas and I guess I didn't see the wall.

i hereby solemnly vow that i will neither by word nor deed seek to oppress your rl rights on this here internet forum for nerdy weirdos.

Can we move on now to the topic of forum moderation?

@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee

When I said "absence of experience," I was referring to your self-professed inactivity on places like this. What I was saying is that we've tread through a particular topic before, which is why some of us are exasperated with certain ideas, arguments, or situations.

And when I said I'd been around for forever, it meant that I've been reading all those threads right alongside you. And I haven't noticed anything like the level of venom that some people are claiming is happening here. I also have admitted several times that I could be wrong. Don't try to diminish my contributions because I have a low post count.

@deadculture said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee I think I specified my situation quite well, honestly. You need to read back.

Because my government can and will use the words I say on the internet against me, without the very flimsy cover of anonymity. Which they can break just as well with a subpoena.

By the way, the right to express oneself is a basic human right. You are correct this is a privately-owned forum, and not all speech here is allowed. I express myself within the framework that's already set, which I do not want to see tightened. Ergo. I argue for the status quo.

And others disagree. I am sorry you live in a place that can/will censor your ability to express yourself.

It's just not all that relevant in the discussion of forum moderation.

@deadculture said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee You label the words, not knowing that words can be used in any context, including satire, parody and other forms of dark humor/schadenfreude.

The moment you attribute labels to words in the same way people often attribute labels to people to discredit their viewpoints or simply to deflect from them, is the moment that censorship begins. After all, that's what 1984 is about, the totalitarian point of view in which the potential of a word to hurt means it has to expunged from the lexicon outright.

Your next step is to start burning dictionaries and books that have the words, a la Fahrenheit 451.

wowza that's a spicy take!!!!!!

@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Absolutely, that seems very reasonable to me. the majority of my position has been 'Calm down about people disagreeing with you online everyone. It's not the end of the world.'

In response to that, I would say: that's one part of it.

The other part is: if arguing on the internet is pointless, then so is hyperbole; type clearly and concisely if you are actually trying to say something meaningful.

I guess. I disagree with you there. To me it's more this:

There is a social cost with being an asshole (using sjw as a pejorative, saying the c-word, etc.). If you don't want to pay the social cost of being an asshole (being made fun of, ostracism, hyperbolically negative replies, etc.) then don't be an asshole.

I realize you aren't talking about just this instance, but.. that's the only one that started this thread. And it's the only one I've discussed. By all means, if you want to discuss other instances? Please bring them up here! I'm sure people will be more than willing to talk about those and how to improve.

That said, in response to your last paragraph:

Your mental health is more important than the latest gossip about which 6 dicked Crinos BSD player is banging which of the latest crop of Arx Princesses this week and why that's a really bad thing for the community. Stay out of the Hog Pit, and have staff dish out bans/deletions when people do weird stuff outside of it. I've been lurking for a while and I haven't really seen it. It's definitely been a thing in the past, but the quoted post on page 1 that Ark used as an example was certainly not an example of hogpiling in any way, shape, or form. And that was FROM the hog pit!

@three-eyed-crow said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

I don't even so much want downvotes back (dear God the wangsting, and I'm sure it'd create more mod problems) as I miss a mild form of 'this is incorrect' between just putting a user on ignore (which is what I've taken to doing when a poster makes the same nonsense asshole post over and over again) and joining in dogpiling.

You're still sort of buying into the weird idea that assholes put out that 'dogpiling' is inherently negative. Speaking up about your opinions, even if other people disagree with them, is a good thing to do. Don't buy into the narrative of the sunnyj's and lisse24's that claim they're 'being attacked' when someone disagrees with them. That's how shitty opinions go unanswered, and its a good way to let a place become poison.

edit: Using dogpiling as distinct from 'hogpiling' or whatever we want to call it, where you're just an unrepentant asshole for no reason. Disagreement =/= being an asshole.

@auspice said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@tempest said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Did I not get the memo on "gaslighting is the new buzzword"? I swear this is the only place I hear this phrase come up more than once in a blue moon, and weirdly enough, it seems to only ever come from a certain crowd.

I do not think I have ever made the accusation on these boards. However, it was the specifically naming SunnyJ as someone who complains about dogpiling/attacks/et al that pinged my spidey senses here because SunnyJ is probably one of the more chill people on the boards who has no fucks to give on a general basis.

As for the 'arguing with' I actually noted to Gany and Ark both already that this is already, very obviously, a troll and what my personal recommendation is.

Oh, I think sunnyj is the guy who said the sjw thing, or maybe the c-word in the other thread. That's why I brought them up. I absolutely may have been misremembering.

Also, I'm not a puppet or anything. Just a lurker who realizes once again why this site's many iterations are just the same 20 conversations on repeat for the past 15 years. My mistake for having a calm and rational discussion in the constructive forum.

@saosmash said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

I feel like no arguments get more heated in the constructive part of the forum than arguments about our moderation standards. I've now read this whole thread and I'm honestly not sure why.

Yeah. I asked for examples of people dogpiling for no reason, and I was delivered it in spades.

@auspice said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@tempest said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Did I not get the memo on "gaslighting is the new buzzword"? I swear this is the only place I hear this phrase come up more than once in a blue moon, and weirdly enough, it seems to only ever come from a certain crowd.

I do not think I have ever made the accusation on these boards. However, it was the specifically naming SunnyJ as someone who complains about dogpiling/attacks/et al that pinged my spidey senses here because SunnyJ is probably one of the more chill people on the boards who has no fucks to give on a general basis.

As for the 'arguing with' I actually noted to Gany and Ark both already that this is already, very obviously, a troll and what my personal recommendation is.

Oh, I think sunnyj is the guy who said the sjw thing, or maybe the c-word in the other thread. That's why I brought them up. I absolutely may have been misremembering.

Also, I'm not a puppet or anything. Just a lurker who realizes once again why this site's many iterations are just the same 20 conversations on repeat for the past 15 years. My mistake for having a calm and rational discussion in the constructive forum.

@tempest said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

Did I not get the memo on "gaslighting is the new buzzword"? I swear this is the only place I hear this phrase come up more than once in a blue moon, and weirdly enough, it seems to only ever come from a certain crowd.

Yeah, people are very upset that I disagreed with them online about disagreements online so they're reaching as hard as they can. They can go back to it. There's a reason I tend toward just lurking.

@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

You're still sort of buying into the weird idea that assholes put out that 'dogpiling' is inherently negative.

Why would you state your opinion in opposition to another's when someone else has said exactly the same thing?

What are you adding to the conversation?

That's what I'm saying - why does only one person get to express any given opinion? Why is a person saying 'yeah I agree with poster#378, this isn't a good thing to do'. a heinous crime?

You have to understand how silly this question is, right?

@auspice said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@roz said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee something something don't call people assholes outside the hog pit something something

Honestly, I'm seeing more some disturbing levels of gaslighting attempts at this point.

In what way? I feel like I've been very consistent.

@three-eyed-crow said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

I don't even so much want downvotes back (dear God the wangsting, and I'm sure it'd create more mod problems) as I miss a mild form of 'this is incorrect' between just putting a user on ignore (which is what I've taken to doing when a poster makes the same nonsense asshole post over and over again) and joining in dogpiling.

You're still sort of buying into the weird idea that assholes put out that 'dogpiling' is inherently negative. Speaking up about your opinions, even if other people disagree with them, is a good thing to do. Don't buy into the narrative of the sunnyj's and lisse24's that claim they're 'being attacked' when someone disagrees with them. That's how shitty opinions go unanswered, and its a good way to let a place become poison.

edit: Using dogpiling as distinct from 'hogpiling' or whatever we want to call it, where you're just an unrepentant asshole for no reason. Disagreement =/= being an asshole.

@bored said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

I'm not sure it's a 'level of venom' thing. I imagine most people would agree I'm one of the more willingly combative posters and don't think the hog pit should go away. Sometimes torches and pitchforks are the required answer, particularly as it pertains to some of the forum's original function as a space where people can report on game abuses away from on-game censorship or reprisal (although the reprisals still happen, as we saw on the SF/Spider thread). Sometimes the vicious dog-pile is social correction.

And I very strongly believe we always need a space where someone can go 'look at this shitstain of a corrupt creeping fucknugget staffer and their garbage pile of a game, AVOID AVOID AVOID'. And when the staffers come on to defend their shitty behavior, they get dogpiled and it's glorious and proper. I support watching those people flail and dig their holes, and moderation in those cases would almost certainly be abused by the guilty staff to silence their detractors.

But I also recognize the value of having constructive spaces and have badgered until the mods gave in argued for the creation of places for people who want the civil discussion. That's actually how we got the Game Dev section. But civil discussion really means civil discussion, if that's what you want. In that thread, I had been suggesting that it get a higher standard of moderation per the desire of people like @surreality and @faraday who wanted somewhere they could discuss ideas with very strict controls on criticism.

We got the new forum, but we didn't get the higher moderation standard. So we still just have more of this shitty weird moderation that's hands off except when they personally disagree or don't like someone, that promotes 'attack the idea not the person' but has no fucking clue of where that line is (as mod participation in the OC thread demonstrated), etc. I don't know that we need a forum-wide revolution but yeah, maybe test 'actually be nice' on the forum where that was supposed to be the goal? Instead of just more half-assing it.

I'd agree with most of this. But, I still haven't seen it be near as bad as it was back in the heyday of angry grump posting that this site's previous iterations have seen and I'll stand by that, whether I've been actively posting or not.

@three-eyed-crow said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee
Yeah, I mean, if you look at the member list, the majority of users registered lurk and don't post a ton, which is most forums. I think it's interesting to read what someone uninvolved in the same fight 20 times thinks, because it's probably not wrapped up in petty grudges from that asshole who upvoted a post where somebody was mean about me that time or whatever.

Yeah, I dunno. I guess I've seen some slapfights, but it feels to me more like 'omg its the 6 fingered man making a post! I must defeat them now!!!' more than 'these posts are particularly vitriolic and negative to a degree that demands almost 300 posts about whether its ok to have more than one person disagree with an opinion'.

People are mad because mu*ers have been mad for decades because we're all miserable weirdos. That's why we play online TT nerd games where we pretend to be sexy vampires.

And like you said. Posters can't even deal with being DOWNVOTED. The least in your face version of disagreement. The problem is that a lot of people on this forum seem to be very inured to the idea that they can say and do whatever they want, and anyone saying that they disagree is the same as a punch in the face, or government censorship.

I think that's silly.

@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee

When I said "absence of experience," I was referring to your self-professed inactivity on places like this. What I was saying is that we've tread through a particular topic before, which is why some of us are exasperated with certain ideas, arguments, or situations.

And when I said I'd been around for forever, it meant that I've been reading all those threads right alongside you. And I haven't noticed anything like the level of venom that some people are claiming is happening here. I also have admitted several times that I could be wrong. Don't try to diminish my contributions because I have a low post count.

@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:

I'm not trying to be rude, but I've asked two or three people for examples now, and they've been unable to provide them. It's starting to look like maybe this problem is imagined more than experienced.

Examples are not the same as evidence.

Faraday's point is clear to me: why should I spend my time nattering with assholes? It seems like a silly thing to do, if one wishes to avoid them.

We all know how the Hog Pit works. Since you're new, you're probably not seeing how the toxicity consistently bleeds from there into other places, like here, in the Mildly Constructive area. But this is something we've talked about before.

So, your lack of evidence is more of an absence of experience to me.

I've been around since wora (or swofa? whichever was first I never remember the acronym order) and been mu*ing for 20 years. I'm posting for the first time in a while, and even back then I wasn't very prolific. I brought that up a few times in my posts. It definitely has happened. It doesn't regularly happen anymore very often, the hog pit does a good job with that from what I've seen. I absolutely accept that I could be wrong - but again, in this isntance even? Which is being treated like a hogpiling? It was one person being politely asked not to say a word, and a few people eyerolling at his 'OMG SJWWWW!!!!!!!' reply to that. Then another person stomped in and, because they consider themselves a conservative, decided that they were being attacked when someone else was asked not to say the c word.