@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
I'm not trying to be rude, but I've asked two or three people for examples now, and they've been unable to provide them. It's starting to look like maybe this problem is imagined more than experienced.
Examples are not the same as evidence.
Faraday's point is clear to me: why should I spend my time nattering with assholes? It seems like a silly thing to do, if one wishes to avoid them.
We all know how the Hog Pit works. Since you're new, you're probably not seeing how the toxicity consistently bleeds from there into other places, like here, in the Mildly Constructive area. But this is something we've talked about before.
So, your lack of evidence is more of an absence of experience to me.
I've been around since wora (or swofa? whichever was first I never remember the acronym order) and been mu*ing for 20 years. I'm posting for the first time in a while, and even back then I wasn't very prolific. I brought that up a few times in my posts. It definitely has happened. It doesn't regularly happen anymore very often, the hog pit does a good job with that from what I've seen. I absolutely accept that I could be wrong - but again, in this isntance even? Which is being treated like a hogpiling? It was one person being politely asked not to say a word, and a few people eyerolling at his 'OMG SJWWWW!!!!!!!' reply to that. Then another person stomped in and, because they consider themselves a conservative, decided that they were being attacked when someone else was asked not to say the c word.
When I said "absence of experience," I was referring to your self-professed inactivity on places like this. What I was saying is that we've tread through a particular topic before, which is why some of us are exasperated with certain ideas, arguments, or situations.
@surreality said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@haven Asshole works, and everyone has one.
You are not wrong!
I forgot about assholes. Maybe it's just me who is genitalia focused. I am so ashamed.
@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
When I said "absence of experience," I was referring to your self-professed inactivity on places like this. What I was saying is that we've tread through a particular topic before, which is why some of us are exasperated with certain ideas, arguments, or situations.
And when I said I'd been around for forever, it meant that I've been reading all those threads right alongside you. And I haven't noticed anything like the level of venom that some people are claiming is happening here. I also have admitted several times that I could be wrong. Don't try to diminish my contributions because I have a low post count.
@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
And when I said I'd been around for forever, it meant that I've been reading all those threads right alongside you. And I haven't noticed anything like the level of venom that some people are claiming is happening here.
Have you ever considered that you haven't noticed the venom because you haven't been a regular participant?
@friendlybee
Yeah, I mean, if you look at the member list, the majority of users registered lurk and don't post a ton, which is most forums. I think it's interesting to read what someone uninvolved in the same fight 20 times thinks, because it's probably not wrapped up in petty grudges against that asshole who upvoted a post where somebody was mean about me that time or whatever.
This whole thing makes me miss the downvote yet again because there was a way to register that you thought something was stupid without posting (and I never liked it being anonymous I like when people know I think they're stupid). But posters could NOT deal with being downvoted so...idk.
@three-eyed-crow said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@friendlybee
Yeah, I mean, if you look at the member list, the majority of users registered lurk and don't post a ton, which is most forums. I think it's interesting to read what someone uninvolved in the same fight 20 times thinks, because it's probably not wrapped up in petty grudges from that asshole who upvoted a post where somebody was mean about me that time or whatever.
Yeah, I dunno. I guess I've seen some slapfights, but it feels to me more like 'omg its the 6 fingered man making a post! I must defeat them now!!!' more than 'these posts are particularly vitriolic and negative to a degree that demands almost 300 posts about whether its ok to have more than one person disagree with an opinion'.
People are mad because mu*ers have been mad for decades because we're all miserable weirdos. That's why we play online TT nerd games where we pretend to be sexy vampires.
And like you said. Posters can't even deal with being DOWNVOTED. The least in your face version of disagreement. The problem is that a lot of people on this forum seem to be very inured to the idea that they can say and do whatever they want, and anyone saying that they disagree is the same as a punch in the face, or government censorship.
I think that's silly.
@three-eyed-crow I will always vote for restoring downvotes (and disciplining individual posters who use it as an excuse to go through someone's entire post history or bring in a crew to brigade).
@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
Yeah, I dunno. I guess I've seen some slapfights, but it feels to me more like 'omg its the 6 fingered man making a post! I must defeat them now!!!' more than 'these posts are particularly vitriolic and negative to a degree that demands almost 300 posts about whether its ok to have more than one person disagree with an opinion'.
I want to be the 6 fingered man.
We definitely need downvotes, but I guess that would infringe on the "safe space" so many people here seem to desperately need.
I'm not sure it's a 'level of venom' thing. I imagine most people would agree I'm one of the more willingly combative posters and don't think the hog pit should go away. Sometimes torches and pitchforks are the required answer, particularly as it pertains to some of the forum's original function as a space where people can report on game abuses away from on-game censorship or reprisal (although the reprisals still happen, as we saw on the SF/Spider thread). Sometimes the vicious dog-pile is social correction.
And I very strongly believe we always need a space where someone can go 'look at this shitstain of a corrupt creeping fucknugget staffer and their garbage pile of a game, AVOID AVOID AVOID'. And when the staffers come on to defend their shitty behavior, they get dogpiled and it's glorious and proper. I support watching those people flail and dig their holes, and moderation in those cases would almost certainly be abused by the guilty staff to silence their detractors.
But I also recognize the value of having constructive spaces and have badgered until the mods gave in argued for the creation of places for people who want the civil discussion. That's actually how we got the Game Dev section. But civil discussion really means civil discussion, if that's what you want. In that thread, I had been suggesting that it get a higher standard of moderation per the desire of people like @surreality and @faraday who wanted somewhere they could discuss ideas with very strict controls on criticism.
We got the new forum, but we didn't get the higher moderation standard. So we still just have more of this shitty weird moderation that's hands off except when they personally disagree or don't like someone, that promotes 'attack the idea not the person' but has no fucking clue of where that line is (as mod participation in the OC thread demonstrated), etc. I don't know that we need a forum-wide revolution but yeah, maybe test 'actually be nice' on the forum where that was supposed to be the goal? Instead of just more half-assing it.
@bored said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
I'm not sure it's a 'level of venom' thing. I imagine most people would agree I'm one of the more willingly combative posters and don't think the hog pit should go away. Sometimes torches and pitchforks are the required answer, particularly as it pertains to some of the forum's original function as a space where people can report on game abuses away from on-game censorship or reprisal (although the reprisals still happen, as we saw on the SF/Spider thread). Sometimes the vicious dog-pile is social correction.
And I very strongly believe we always need a space where someone can go 'look at this shitstain of a corrupt creeping fucknugget staffer and their garbage pile of a game, AVOID AVOID AVOID'. And when the staffers come on to defend their shitty behavior, they get dogpiled and it's glorious and proper. I support watching those people flail and dig their holes, and moderation in those cases would almost certainly be abused by the guilty staff to silence their detractors.
But I also recognize the value of having constructive spaces and have
badgered until the mods gave inargued for the creation of places for people who want the civil discussion. That's actually how we got the Game Dev section. But civil discussion really means civil discussion, if that's what you want. In that thread, I had been suggesting that it get a higher standard of moderation per the desire of people like @surreality and @faraday who wanted somewhere they could discuss ideas with very strict controls on criticism.We got the new forum, but we didn't get the higher moderation standard. So we still just have more of this shitty weird moderation that's hands off except when they personally disagree or don't like someone, that promotes 'attack the idea not the person' but has no fucking clue of where that line is (as mod participation in the OC thread demonstrated), etc. I don't know that we need a forum-wide revolution but yeah, maybe test 'actually be nice' on the forum where that was supposed to be the goal? Instead of just more half-assing it.
I'd agree with most of this. But, I still haven't seen it be near as bad as it was back in the heyday of angry grump posting that this site's previous iterations have seen and I'll stand by that, whether I've been actively posting or not.
I don't even so much want downvotes back (dear God the wangsting, and I'm sure it'd create more mod problems) as I miss a mild form of 'this is incorrect' between just putting a user on ignore (which is what I've taken to doing when a poster makes the same nonsense asshole post over and over again) and joining in dogpiling.
@three-eyed-crow said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
I don't even so much want downvotes back (dear God the wangsting, and I'm sure it'd create more mod problems) as I miss a mild form of 'this is incorrect' between just putting a user on ignore (which is what I've taken to doing when a poster makes the same nonsense asshole post over and over again) and joining in dogpiling.
You're still sort of buying into the weird idea that assholes put out that 'dogpiling' is inherently negative. Speaking up about your opinions, even if other people disagree with them, is a good thing to do. Don't buy into the narrative of the sunnyj's and lisse24's that claim they're 'being attacked' when someone disagrees with them. That's how shitty opinions go unanswered, and its a good way to let a place become poison.
edit: Using dogpiling as distinct from 'hogpiling' or whatever we want to call it, where you're just an unrepentant asshole for no reason. Disagreement =/= being an asshole.
@friendlybee something something don't call people assholes outside the hog pit something something
@bored Part of the problem is that once it gets ugly, the whole thread goes to the pit -- which means civil discussion ends.
I'm totally chill with the offending posts going there if people want to have that slapfight, or them being deleted with a 'if you want to yell at each other about this make a new thread in the appropriate space'.
The current 'just move the whole thing' destroys the chance for any future productive discussion on the topic in which people are expected to act like mature adults. It's not like the usual suspects won't derail a second attempt at the thread in the same way much of the time, or that it won't just stall because 'we already talked about that why do we need a new thread'. Well, if we want a constructive space to discuss that topic, now we need a new thread.
This essentially punishes the people who are engaging as appropriate, and rewards the people behaving badly, since in many cases, the worst offenders just want to watch the world burn. The worst fights may come from decent people arguing fervently about something they feel strongly about, but the worst offenders are repeat offenders who give none fucks about the grey line Arkandel describes, or gleefully riverdance over it for fun.
@roz said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@friendlybee something something don't call people assholes outside the hog pit something something
Honestly, I'm seeing more some disturbing levels of gaslighting attempts at this point.
@auspice said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@roz said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@friendlybee something something don't call people assholes outside the hog pit something something
Honestly, I'm seeing more some disturbing levels of gaslighting attempts at this point.
In what way? I feel like I've been very consistent.
@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
You're still sort of buying into the weird idea that assholes put out that 'dogpiling' is inherently negative.
Why would you state your opinion in opposition to another's when someone else has said exactly the same thing?
What are you adding to the conversation?
@ganymede said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@friendlybee said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
You're still sort of buying into the weird idea that assholes put out that 'dogpiling' is inherently negative.
Why would you state your opinion in opposition to another's when someone else has said exactly the same thing?
What are you adding to the conversation?
That's what I'm saying - why does only one person get to express any given opinion? Why is a person saying 'yeah I agree with poster#378, this isn't a good thing to do'. a heinous crime?
You have to understand how silly this question is, right?
When I said "absence of experience," I was referring to your self-professed inactivity on places like this. What I was saying is that we've tread through a particular topic before, which is why some of us are exasperated with certain ideas, arguments, or situations.
