• RE: Stranger Danger?

    @reimesu said in Stranger Danger?:

    Frankly, I don't understand how anyone can leave MUshing due to bad experiences and distrust and then complain that those of us who stayed want to be able to know who we associate with on a regular basis. That's a pretty big disconnect, thinking that it's OOC drama to ask for that information. It's not, it's called informed consent. If someone is on the receiving end of the question, that's not OOC drama, it's someone being self-protective due to past incidents, or actively trying to avoid OOC drama.

    I wouldn't understand either, if such a thing were actually happening.

    Simply asking isn't drama, but the overall concept of some light interrogation and demanding personal information really, in a nutshell, is drama/dramatic/Etc. It's pressuring, and while I understand your argument is greatly valid...all I'm saying is that that the existing need to validate for self-protection is, in itself, an uncomfortable place for a hobby to be. Especially considering that anyone, at any time, is capable of introducing their new 'identity' as being whoever they choose.

    I ain't judging. Fuck that.

    I just think "what would a completely brand, new, walk-in, never-heard-about person think about getting into the hobby with ___________ ?", and I think the level of drama and fear would just be so weird to someone new. And then I think "shit, I got used to that, so maybe I just got weird." ...or some varying theme of that.

    But we should probably get back to the topic (how one approaches the stranger Danger factor) before people get too judgmental.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    @Misadventure said in Stranger Danger?:

    Know, learn or guess what your personally vulnerable roleplay topics are.
    Don't do RP thats personally vulnerable.
    Don't give out personal details like names, locations, job title.
    Don't share any social media, it's a network of places for you and others to make security mistakes.

    These four points are always good to follow.

    I thought I had made friends over my past 25+ years of doing this, but I misjudged how firm many of those friendships were.

    Last suggestion:

    It's okay to let it all go.

    And I have.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    I mean, I can see both sides here. Would I like to be able to be anonymous, and just find somewhere fun to play? Of course, because we've all seen the shit I've been given, names I've been called, etc, even when I did nothing amiss, I would love to be anonymous. But at the same time, I am beyond sure I have my tells, patterns, and things, so people know when it's me.

    The thing is for me, I don't go digging to find out who I may be playing with, unless they do something that makes something in my brain go "Wait!" It may be a good thing, or a bad thing, but.. there it is.

    I know, there are people out there right now who may look at the idea I'm willing to RP with most everyone unless they've done something super egregious to me, or super gross that I've seen proof of. Something something people pleaser, ass kisser, whatever. But for me, it's more about wanting to believe in second chances.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    There's one guy who was on The Network and then on another game that I was on who would vault over boundaries. The second time he did it, he did it while not using his normal Ares handle so I wouldn't know it was him. (I figured it out on my own, anyway. He had very noticeable patterns.)

    To quote a friend, "Consent that you have to lie to get isn't consent." Frankly, I don't understand how anyone can leave MUshing due to bad experiences and distrust and then complain that those of us who stayed want to be able to know who we associate with on a regular basis. That's a pretty big disconnect, thinking that it's OOC drama to ask for that information. It's not, it's called informed consent. If someone is on the receiving end of the question, that's not OOC drama, it's someone being self-protective due to past incidents, or actively trying to avoid OOC drama.

    Hell, I know there's a number of people who don't want to RP with me. I do my best to respect that. I'm an acquired taste and I get that I'm not everyone's cuppa.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    @faraday said in Stranger Danger?:

    Isn't that true of any relationship, though, online or off? Someone who's had bad experiences is naturally going to be more leery than someone who hasn't, but it almost seems like you're saying it's better to just never engage OOCly at all. (Maybe I'm misunderstanding.)

    True, absolutely. Like I said, my approach led to somewhat of an isolationist stance that led to me ultimately leaving the hobby; it worked for me mentally but may not work for many others. As @Misadventure said it's a question of knowing yourself and how to manage your own bleed. Leaving the games, in the end, was the right call for me per my mind, how I work, etc.

    I'm not convinced it would really insulate you from drama.

    Part of where I came to with my decision is that I felt drama couldnt truly be avoided. A while back I tried just being somewhat anonymous on a game and it resulted in a ton of WhoAreYou and Where have you played and random pages about how people were concerned I was (satire/example) "Burbleboxoloxicoth on Arx who used that PB", and maybe 50% of the time that happened I had no clue who the person was asking about, and the player said something like "if you won't tell me who you are, I don't trust you and won't rp with you".

    It was as if to mitigate the attack surface of drama and not making who I was OOCly a topic, I was immediately opening myself to suspicion. Which, I feel it was logical to assume that to avoid that drama, I would need to expose myself, which would then lead to being tied to whatever drama, past or present, was associated with an entire buncha HogPitters.

    But yeah, in my perfect world, the right to remain anonymous and partake in roleplay without needing to expose who you are as an OOC persona would be important. I think that should be everyone's right to do so without being treated with hostility.

    The topic of "needing to protect oneself from so-called "dangerous" players (a term I feel is often leveled at innocent people, annoying people, in the absence of actual dangerous people) absolutely clashes with the ability to be anonymously cordial and enjoy the hobby without partaking in the mud-slinging side-game.

    I see saw no good answer, so I chose what felt right for me. It's disappointing, but I'm enjoying my new hobbies.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    What I do is try to find the person who's a RL friend who wants the same kind of RP. Either come into the game with an established "relationship" or map out what the two of you want to happen in RP and actually stay in communication. Then we both have a shield from predators. This has worked on numerous games.

    For meeting new people, there's always networking within the friend-group you have. "Do you know who this person is or know them from another game?"

    But really, you are 100% in control of the information you give out, so be very sure before you give it out. Predators will stalk even without the personal info, so don't jump in with both feet the first time you chat with someone OOCly. If they're giving you their life story before you've even said hello, it's a red flag.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    @Ghost
    Its been said that the human brain cannot distinguish between imagination and reality. Seems fair, given that everything is in the brain, and we can fool ourselves or be fooled for a long long time.

    If you believe that people can have strong personal reactions for public images, or characters in a book or film, stands to reason it would be fairly common for there to be bleed. In a way, that IS the point, to have investment, sympathy.

    It's a question of self awareness, and managing that bleed.

    I'd like to suggest that even if a player is completely separate from a character, as we imagine an author or tactical player might be, there is still the reward of collaboration, and the ease of familiarity, which is still an in to a players emotions.

    Be aware, and manage it.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    @faraday said in Stranger Danger?:

    @Hella said in Stranger Danger?:

    I enforce firm boundaries, period. IC, OOC, all the boundaries, everywhere.

    Oh yes, very true. I only call out IC relationships specifically because that's been the #1 source of boundary issues through the years.

    Which makes sense, because "ic relationships" sometimes seem to be tied to RL personal vulnerabilities, so it's a minefield.

    A few people have told me that they adamantly believe that all Mu chars are extensions of the players, and disagreed when I said that a player could be so divorced from the concept of the PC that it could be treated as a separate entity. So if you combine this concept with the sheer vulnerability some people wade into in IC relationships, it's no wonder why the boundary issues happen.

    This isn't meant to be provocative, but with all this in mind it is wholly possible that someone in an IC relationship with your character, even if they're not aware of it, may be getting that feedback as actual intimacy. This in mind, it then makes it possible that some players may have felt they had some kind of actual relationship with the player or character, which forms an attachment. When the other player goes away, it turns into some kind of grieving (loss, sadness, anger, retaliation).

    ^ I write this because it again highlights how quickly these things can get personal despite your best intentions, and whoever it is they say they are one needs to just hope they're stable enough not to impact your RL.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    @faraday said in Stranger Danger?:

    Where I've landed after all these years:

    • I stick to friendly co-op games.
    • I don't do PVP or TS.
    • I enforce firm boundaries on IC relationships. (Though even that has proved exhausting enough that I am now leery of romantic RP with anyone I don't already know and trust OOCly.)
    • I'm choosy about the games I play on - usually either my own or ones from people I trust.

    I feel bad that you've had such horrible experiences, though, because I have made several life-long friends through MUSHing. Not just "oh they RP well so it's fun to play a game with them" but true friends. Yes, we must be cautious and sensible with any interactions on the internet, but I don't think we need to be so paranoid that we cut ourselves off from meaningful interaction.

    All of the above, though one slight alteration. I enforce firm boundaries, period. IC, OOC, all the boundaries, everywhere. And if there's even the slightest hint of a red flag, I just say so and move on. It has led to a world of difference for me, and I can genuinely say the friends I've made, I feel honoured to have made.

    posted in Reviews and Debates
  • RE: Stranger Danger?

    @Misadventure said in Stranger Danger?:

    Know, learn or guess what your personally vulnerable roleplay topics are.

    I liked that one a lot.

    For me, I learned after a certain point to do what I call "guarding my space". I decided that only the 1 or 2 people I was actively friends with (friends as in "not an acquaintance but someone I'd known long enough to be sure who they were), but even then I tend to be vague about my personal life issues. I started holding back on personal details after an incident where I had to put some distance between myself and someone oocly who i was somewhat close with, and their response was to tell everyone my private business and that I was some kind of leech. People are absolute dog shit sometimes. Weaponizing someone's RL issues as a means of retaliation is pretty bad. Then again, it could have been way, way worse.

    But in terms of "guarding my space", I took a deep look at where my "blind spots" were. It's hard to be honest about that kind of stuff, but it did me well. I reminded myself that people in the hobby were strangers in the actual sense, and like most people they tend to present an idealized version of themselves because ultimately they're text, strangers, and could really be anyone. Even that person who fucked me over was really a stranger then, too, and who the fuck knows why I shared personal details.

    At some point (lol) I just stopped even caring or thinking about who I was RPing with and just accepted them as "stranger who roleplays well". I have it on good authority from the gay community that some gay men tend to present as female to get solid TS from assumed actual men, but then something in my head tripped and I realized I could have at any time done the same if I wanted to.

    I mean, fuck, it's theoretically possible that people have unknowingly TSed family members or celebrities. Even Bin Laden was allegedly super active on Xenoverse/Xenoverse2, and definitely under an assumed identity.

    Now, my approach ultimately led me to caring less about game stuff and stopping MuRP altogether because whatever attachments I had kinda disintegrated into "fuck it they're strangers, I have plenty of RL friends", and whenever drama started I just...stopped giving a fuck. This worked for me, but probably not everyone, but that's my big tl;dr suggestion:

    Guard your space.
    These people are strangers, and it's better for you to guard your information going out (Pii that can get you stalked, harassed, abused, put in danger, public ridicule), than to find yourself trying to wrestle control from someone who has taken it from you due to them knowing too much.

    After all, it's pretty possible that at least one (or more?) of the dozens of people in the community has catfished their "persona/identity" on an ooc-level, for good or bad reasons. Just be careful.

    posted in Reviews and Debates