MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?

Kumakun

I've just come back into the hobby after taking a several year life/family/education hiatus, and boy have things changed!

I used to, and still currently code MUX, but as I get re-adjusted I see that more modern technologies (Python, Ruby - has anyone done anything significant with Node.js yet?) are being used as a basis for MU* servers. I think this is great! I had/have a bunch of ideas for shoehorning modern communication techniques into MUX, but as I re-equate I get the feeling that the technology is REALLY showing it's age/limitations, so I ask you this:

What do you feel is great about newer server technologies? What new 'features' do you really, like, and what do you wish to see? My big one is web service integration. Give me more ways to interact with, and stay connected to a game and it's community through JUST terminal time. Let me take care of some of the off-camera details ahead of time so that when I /can/ sit down to play, I can do just that and not worry about as much book-keeping.

Are we moving in a direction where we're going to have to figure out how to ditch the classic terminal and adopt something more accessible? What keeps us from becoming another PbP community, or Storium, or is that where we're headed?

ZombieGenesis

I love Ares for the web service integration...it just has a few flaws that I couldn't get past(can't have 2 word names, it capitalizes every word, can't have lower case aliases, and a few others) BUT the web integration is fantastic.

Auspice

This is something that can get people very hot-headed, I admit (and I'm one of them >.>).

I am very much in the camp of liking where we're at because my experiences with forum RP and Storium haven't been very good. Not one single Storium game I've been in has ever gotten past the initial setup / "scene." Any forum RP I've been in has floundered or been very short-term. MU has been the only time I've ever been able to really engage in long-term stories.

It's also the only way to really get things done in a short period of time. If I need to wait days or weeks for people to reply, I'm gonna lose the thread/interest myself. I gdoc with people sometimes (when there's scheduling issues, for backscenes, etc.) and by and far, if more than 2-3 days pass between poses? The scene is considered dead.

The other thing there: accessibility, as you said. You need to think in the other definition. Not 'accessibility to a broader audience,' but accessibility to devices (a lot of forums, 'neat' websites, etc. scale very poorly to mobile phones, but I've known people to run WoD combat from a tablet!) and accessibility to the disabled community. MUs are accessible to blind users. I'm not sure other formats are. The last I used Storium for example, it was very image heavy and had a fairly complex interface. I'd hate to see MUs switch over just to maybe gain new blood, but lose some of our long-time players who are there because it's a form of gaming they can access.

The web-interface built into some of the new codebases like Ares I think is a great meeting of the two. You don't lose what we have and what works while bridging in some of the 'new.' And while you get that great web experience (web CG, being able to interact over the web, etc) on Ares... you can also do everything from within the classic telnet client itself without needing to go on the web portal (which makes it beautifully accessible to people who have to use screen readers!).

Kumakun

@auspice said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

This is something that can get people very hot-headed, I admit (and I'm one of them >.>).

I am very much in the camp of liking where we're at because my experiences with forum RP and Storium haven't been very good. Not one single Storium game I've been in has ever gotten past the initial setup / "scene." Any forum RP I've been in has floundered or been very short-term. MU has been the only time I've ever been able to really engage in long-term stories.

It's also the only way to really get things done in a short period of time. If I need to wait days or weeks for people to reply, I'm gonna lose the thread/interest myself. I gdoc with people sometimes (when there's scheduling issues, for backscenes, etc.) and by and far, if more than 2-3 days pass between poses? The scene is considered dead.

The other thing there: accessibility, as you said. You need to think in the other definition. Not 'accessibility to a broader audience,' but accessibility to devices (a lot of forums, 'neat' websites, etc. scale very poorly to mobile phones, but I've known people to run WoD combat from a tablet!) and accessibility to the disabled community. MUs are accessible to blind users. I'm not sure other formats are. The last I used Storium for example, it was very image heavy and had a fairly complex interface. I'd hate to see MUs switch over just to maybe gain new blood, but lose some of our long-time players who are there because it's a form of gaming they can access.

The web-interface built into some of the new codebases like Ares I think is a great meeting of the two. You don't lose what we have and what works while bridging in some of the 'new.' And while you get that great web experience (web CG, being able to interact over the web, etc) on Ares... you can also do everything from within the classic telnet client itself without needing to go on the web portal (which makes it beautifully accessible to people who have to use screen readers!).

I didn't even take that accessibility to the disabled community into consideration, thank you! MU* has to be a dream for screen readers and related technology. As far as web integration that's pretty much what I'm talking about, accessing mail, jobs, character sheets, XP spends, etc - but they're all also activities that you can do on the server if you want as well. The last thing I want is for us to move to a platform like PbP or Storium because I agree. I lose interest if too much time passes between posts, and I've yet to play a Storium game to get much further than introduction and setup.

Followup question/thought! If we are to continue to bring new blood into the hobby, device accessibility is important too! Is it maybe the 'client' that needs improvement or needs improvement as well?

faraday

I'm not aware of anyone doing a game in node.js. Part of what you need to consider is how people are going to extend your code with their own custom code, and I think a more approachable language like Python/Ruby helps a lot there.

@kumakun said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

Are we moving in a direction where we're going to have to figure out how to ditch the classic terminal and adopt something more accessible? What keeps us from becoming another PbP community, or Storium, or is that where we're headed?

I think the "live" nature of MUSHing is a key ingredient that sets it apart from those other kinds of communities. I don't see it going full PbP, but I do see it shifting more towards chat clients like Slack and Discord in the way we interact with it. Especially on mobile.

@zombiegenesis said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

can't have 2 word names, it capitalizes every word, can't have lower case aliases, and a few others

Side note - some of these have already or could be addressed, if you'd like to discuss more in a separate thread.

Kumakun

@faraday said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

I'm not aware of anyone doing a game in node.js. Part of what you need to consider is how people are going to extend your code with their own custom code, and I think a more approachable language like Python/Ruby helps a lot there.

I've been looking into Node more for an electron.js based client than a server because you're right, Python or Ruby is way more readable than JS. Plus I can't think of another language where creating a plugin architecture is as easy as Python. Not that I've used in recent memory anyways.

I think the "live" nature of MUSHing is a key ingredient that sets it apart from those other kinds of communities. I don't see it going full PbP, but I do see it shifting more towards chat clients like Slack and Discord in the way we interact with it. Especially on mobile.

I've noticed a trend in Discord discord since returning. I wonder if it's because the barrier of customization is too high? Or if it's the accessibility of the platform. I can imagine that 'chat server' RP is a bit more shorthand expressive than other mediums.

faraday

@kumakun said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

Plus I can't think of another language where creating a plugin architecture is as easy as Python. Not that I've used in recent memory anyways

Actually the reason I chose Ruby of Python for Ares was because the dynamic language features of Ruby were better-suited (IMHO) to a plugin-based architecture.

@kumakun said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

I've noticed a trend in Discord discord since returning. ... Or if it's the accessibility of the platform.

Chat client RP has been around almost as long as MUSHes have. Once upon a time it was AOL chatrooms, later IRC, now Discord. For simple, freeform RP it's hard to beat "create an account on Discord and go!" - both in terms of game setup and game playing. MUSHes are way more involved. The learning curve is steeper, the culture is in many ways off-putting, and setting up a game is prohibitively difficult.

Auspice

@kumakun said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

Is it maybe the 'client' that needs improvement or needs improvement as well?

I definitely think a new/improved client would be fantastic.
Mudrammer for iOS is pretty good, but has its flaws.
I don't think any of the Android clients out there are really all that great. I hear nothing but complaints about them. I used Mukluk when I had an Android and only because it was the least bad of the lot. I know on ChromeOS there is only Duck Client and I know people struggle with it to no end.

So in the arena of "mobile clients" for tablets/mobile devices, there is definitely something lacking and that makes approachability (I think that term vs. accessibility is probably preferable to help differentiate) difficult.

Ganymede

@faraday said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

Chat client RP has been around almost as long as MUSHes have. Once upon a time it was AOL chatrooms, later IRC, now Discord. For simple, freeform RP it's hard to beat "create an account on Discord and go!" - both in terms of game setup and game playing. MUSHes are way more involved. The learning curve is steeper, the culture is in many ways off-putting, and setting up a game is prohibitively difficult.

Have you tried Role? It's an app.

I looked at it, and I don't know how to feel about it.

Kumakun

I definitely think a new/improved client would be fantastic.
Mudrammer for iOS is pretty good, but has its flaws.
I don't think any of the Android clients out there are really all that great. I hear nothing but complaints about them. I used Mukluk when I had an Android and only because it was the least bad of the lot. I know on ChromeOS there is only Duck Client and I know people struggle with it to no end.

So in the arena of "mobile clients" for tablets/mobile devices, there is definitely something lacking and that makes approachability (I think that term vs. accessibility is probably preferable to help differentiate) difficult.

That's another topic I can search for and see what's started. Clients. What people expect/wish/want out of a client. When I first came back I tried to start-up my old SimpleMu Client that I used to love - which of course doesn't work anymore so I had to move to something else. I sure do miss some of those features!

faraday

@ganymede said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

Have you tried Role? It's an app.

No. It bills itself more as a 'party game' version of a RPG, so not really my thing.

@kumakun said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

I've yet to play a Storium game to get much further than introduction and setup.

@auspice said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

Not one single Storium game I've been in has ever gotten past the initial setup / "scene."

This is a common complaint, but I do think people (not necessarily you - but in general) are quick to blame the technology for what is really a social problem.

I've been part of several ongoing Storium games, and the one thing they all have in common is a narrator that keeps things moving. The better narrators (and they're the exception rather than the rule, I admit) know how to structure the challenges in a way that doesn't require everyone's participation, and then skip over people when they drop out. This is really not so different from successful MUSH storytelling.

I mean, imagine what would happen if you set up a MUSH but then told people: "You can only pose in this one scene this week, and it involves everyone on the game, and you have to wait for the storyteller in-between rounds, and 1/3rd of the players are going to drop out before the first scene even finishes." It wouldn't work very well! But that's not a problem with the technology, it's a problem with the way the game is structured.

Thenomain

@faraday said in MU* Server Technology/Features. What do you WANT, what do you SEE?:

I mean, imagine what would happen if you set up a MUSH but then told people: "You can only pose in this one scene this week, and it involves everyone on the game, and you have to wait for the storyteller in-between rounds, and 1/3rd of the players are going to drop out before the first scene even finishes." It wouldn't work very well! But that's not a problem with the technology, it's a problem with the way the game is structured.

Did someone say my second name, "You-have-to-be-careful-when-using-technology-to-solve-social-problems?"

Not having played Storium, is the description you have a part of Storium's code, or is this a rule that many storytellers on Storium give it?

If it's the former, then it is a code issue. It's a bad code issue (looking to solve a social problem, perhaps?) that should be looked into by Storium's developers, or should be settable per story.

If it's the latter, then storytellers are being kind of silly.

Auspice

For me, re: Storium, it's that it's kind of clunky and awkward to use. And stories never get up off the ground because people never even finish creating their characters. So then you have the story try to move with 2 or 3 people....... and most of them never take their first actions / first poses and...

...whelp, no story happens. I stopped even trying after a few.

faraday

@thenomain You can do separate scenes and separate challenges (and that tends to help games go more smoothly) but most games don’t. The gameplay is geared towards modeling a tabletop setting (everyone generally together tackling common challenges) rather than a more distributed MU style of people going their own ways.

faraday

@auspice Sorry for double post. Editing tough on my phone

That hasn't been my experience, FWIW. Every game I've made up a character for has started with a full "cast". But more than half don't get more than a scene or two for the reasons I described.

Storium is very narrator-centric, so like a tabletop RPG your experience will vary wildly depending on the GM and the players.

friarzen

@kumakun For what it's worth, Ranvier.js is the "modern" node.js based MU/MUD engine.

Kumakun

New thoughts! I've looked into Ranvier.js. It's pretty cool! But operates more so in MUD standards - plus I'd rather use at least an ODM 'like' structure for my data for validation reasons. Though I probably won't go as big as MongoDB at first and use something portable like NeDB.

But the reason for this post!

I've been thinking about scripting languages in a JavaScript-powered MU* server with MUX roots: Do you think I need to go as far as recreating MUSHCode, or would sandbox and 'secured' Javascript evaluation work? The latter would probably be easier - and more worth people's time in picking up a real deal language on the side.

Derp

On my short list of stuff that I would like out of MU/Client tech?

The ability to support basic image formats (jpg, png, etc). This would be helpful for doing things like pulling your basic Infobox off of the wiki for a character. When I +info Mike, it pulls up his infobox from the wiki, with a nice PB at the top and his most important info at the bottom of that, so that I can see at a glance what I should be paying attention to.

Persistent text when I re-open the world. If my computer crashes, I don't want to go and have to look up in the log what I was doing, I want the client to just load that already up to a certain buffer size. That should beconfigurable for user preferences.
The ability to split screens and send stuff to a different screen in the same window, like what the Evennia webclient can do now. Should also be configurable re: size and position.
The ability for a character to be in multiple places at once. How many times have all of us here been in a situation where we are in a scene with one character, and then proxy that character with a different character in another window? This is common enough that this limitation is just flat-out dumb at this point.