Random links

[Wretched]

https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/13/18089574/vampire-the-masquerade-white-wolf-lgbtq-chechnya-apology

[Auspice]

@wretched said in Random links:

https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/13/18089574/vampire-the-masquerade-white-wolf-lgbtq-chechnya-apology

Seems a kind of half-assed apology and I imagine the next book will be just as bad, but at least there's something. Seems they need to get rid of more than just Zak S.

[Bobotron]

@auspice

Zak S. hasn't worked for them since he wrote the We Eat Blood game and consulted just prior to WoD Berlin (which was almost 2 years ago). He hasn't been hired to freelance anything since then.

The person leaving is Tobias, who was announced leaving a couple of months ago, but no new CEO has been announced.

[Auspice]

@bobotron said in Random links:

@auspice

Zak S. hasn't worked for them since he wrote the We Eat Blood game and consulted just prior to WoD Berlin (which was almost 2 years ago). He hasn't been hired to freelance anything since then.

The person leaving is Tobias, who was announced leaving a couple of months ago, but no new CEO has been announced.

Oh I know. It was a separate statement. Like, it seems getting rid of Zak S (back when they did) didn't fix all of their issues.

[Tinuviel]

@auspice Wait. You mean firing someone that was a part of a group that enabled and allowed his behaviour didn't instantly solve everything? Oh my word.

[Auspice]

@tinuviel said in Random links:

@auspice Wait. You mean firing someone that was a part of a group that enabled and allowed his behaviour didn't instantly solve everything? Oh my word.

Look.
I can hope.

[Tinuviel]

@auspice

[Bobotron]

@auspice
I don't disagree. The problem is sourcing though, and who and what still needs course correction. There's a bunch of stuff elsewhere about parts of that section being two different character POVs edited together during the editing process, and some other things about one of the people who talked to WW during the development of that chapter being a gay man from that area. So who really knows at this point.

Myself, I'm just ignoring that section and going on about my life planning to run a game.

[Thenomain]

@bobotron

I sincerely mean this: Correct me if I'm wrong.

But isn't consistency the job of the project lead?

Is it still Kenneth Hite for Camarilla?

I think the current White Wolf is trying something daring: Using horror in their games. While I think this is a screw-up, I'm going to apply the adage of malice vs. stupidity.

I don't know who else is writing for the Vampire 5e line nor their biases nor origins. Correct me if I'm wrong. If the lead designer is not up for the challenges then he or she should rightfully get the help of someone who knows what it's like to be part of a violently oppressed minority.

Like Bobotron, I'm going to roll my eyes and ignore it, but in our era of immediate feedback and online flash-mobs (in the worst possible way sometimes), I can see horror needing handled with kid gloves.

I'm astounded and impressed that they are trying. I hope they find how to consistently do horror without being insensitive.

--

And yes I split that infinitive like a boss.

[Bobotron]

@thenomain
Well, Kenneth Hite is the core designer from what I understand, with only minimal input on the story progression points. It has not been said who has final approval, but multiple writers have said that they turned in their material and didn't see anything until after the editing process was done. If anything, Martin has final approval, but Martin has always been vocal about wanting to make a 'political horror 'game using real-world 'ripped from the headlines' material.

From the scuttlebutt that's going around, a large part of the blame lays on the primary editor (which would be Freja Gyldenstrom). Maybe damage control, maybe not, but multiple sources have stated that that section was editing together from two character POVs. There was also a rumor, which I can't source sadly, that the physical books have been put on hold while the section is redone. The rumor states Paradox actually stepped in, which WOULD be in line with the mentality of their new CEO.

If I get source I'll edit. But like you, I would like for them to do horror, but you're right; it has to be done with care. The problem is, there's a point where some things that some people find insensitive may not be to others (and are not objectively so), and so you end up with subjective interpretations and subjective POVs on the material.

There's also a self-admitted chunk of the fanbase so offended by everything in V5 that they actually want to see WW tank and the IP pass hands (despite reports that Paradox paid an initial $2mil for it with furter payments ove the first three years of the company's existence). And at that point, who is going to touch an IP that tanked and has no real 'public' eye.

I dunno. We'll see.

[surreality]

The 'History of Horror' series currently running gets into this quite a lot, re: 'it can be done'.

Agreed that this was not the way. And it hasn't been the way it's successful when it is/has been.

[Thenomain]

@bobotron said in Random links:

There's also a self-admitted chunk of the fanbase so offended by everything in V5 that they actually want to see WW tank

And what WW needs, and Paradox apparently has, is someone with enough social awareness to a) ignore the haters, but b) be aware of the context of the source material.

Then again, there is the occasional thing that The Internet(tm)--that is, a vocal number of people online--gets their collective underwear in a knot over that there is no action that will give a happy ending. c.f. Gamergate.

[Auspice]

As someone who is bi, the way it is done is what bothers me. That's what is upsetting me.

If it was done well. Written well. Woven in well. I'd be more comfortable /OK with it. It just feels wedged in. And I feel uncomfortable looking away in that "Well it's horror" way.

I'm glad they're being called out. They should be.

Write horror. But write it in a respectful fashion.

[Ganymede]

At the risk of sounding an unpopular opinion, I don't see much controversial here.

I don't see anyone downplaying the tumult in Chechnya. I don't see White Wolf somehow making light of what's going on there. The Camarilla is supposed to be composed of some of the worst vampires of all time, who prey on the living because that's what must be done. What is happening in that area of the world is horrifying. And that sort of makes sense given the Camarilla's background.

This sort of controversy is going to happen when one creates fictional explanations for real life events and tragedies. I didn't see any outcry when White Wolf wrote dreck for Africa or the Far East. I didn't see any outcry when White Wolf orientalized the Middle East. And the systematic rape, torture, and destruction of Central America seems to be glossed over in favor of mythologizing death cults.

I guess we're all just more "aware" now, but srsly.

[Arkandel]

@ganymede For starters I do think people ('these days' ) are sometimes looking for something to be offended by. Some of those times are perfectly legitimate but others it's just whatever the hell caught their eye.

To me it's a matter of good taste. I don't think companies should be profiting from exploiting still ongoing situations whose victims have barely had time to recover or to cheapen then by introducing supernatural reasons behind them.

For example a RPG line referencing gun shootings in the US by injecting vampires in them falls into that category. It's just not cool.

On the other hand the same thing referencing WW2 or even Desert Storm is probably fine - those are clearly not trying to grab headlines by being about ongoing, fresh events, and anyone directly involved in them has had many years to cope with the aftermath.

[Ganymede]

So, this is the section at issue, I think:

The recurring international controversy over the persecution of homosexuals is a clever media manipulation designed to keep the focus on Sharia law, away from the true inner workings of the republic. While homosexuals are indeed held in detention facilities for days, and humiliated, starved, tortured, and eventually fed upon and killed, this is not the point. The point is to distract from the truth of what Chechnya has become. That said, even among the Kindred [vampires of the Camarilla] any kind of “homosexual behavior” is punished harshly. ... There is unfortunately nothing we can do for our brothers and sisters in Chechnya who suffer under this — interference is ill-advised at this point, but should any Kindred (or even kine [mortals]) seek asylum within regnums under our control, granting it may win allies to our side who are not just well-trained in combat and thankful to us, but also knowledgeable in the ways of a people who might already be preparing to attack us.

I'm not seeing anything in there making light of the persecution of homosexuals. I'm not seeing anything in their infantilizing the struggle or the killings. I think you would be hard-pressed to find anything in this section that contradicts known truths: (1) that homosexuals are persecuted; (2) that homosexuals are being imprisoned, tortured, and killed; and (3) the truth is not getting to the mainstream media about this.

It will be exceedingly difficult for White Wolf to get back to its previous narrative style of creating a fictional context for modern events, and even more so if it wants to avoid controversy. Frankly, I don't know how else White Wolf could have described the situation. If it provided an "explanation" for the turmoil in the Middle East, would that automatically impugn the dignity and deaths of those who have been killed there? If it provided an "explanation" for why Trump got elected, would that automatically be a "political statement"?

I don't even think this is in bad taste.

This is what everyone who wanted to resurrect the line wanted.

People blasted the New World of Darkness' openness and lack of context. White Wolf went in the other direction, and are being blasted for providing fictional explanations for real-life events.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

[TNP]

I'm with @Ganymede here. Just from what I read, I don't see anything particularly objectionable. In fact, if it makes someone realize that this is actually happening in the Real World (but, you know, minus the vampires) it's a good thing. How many gamers know there's a purge of the LGBTQ community in Chechnya and other nearby countries. If fiction leads to real world awareness, it's a good thing.

I'm just pissed they didn't give us gays any magical blood powers.

[Thenomain]

Request for @Arkandel or @Ganymede to split this discussion into “Mildly Constructive”. Thanks.

[Wizz]

This song is beautiful you guys, I have no idea how I'd never heard it. It had a grown man ugly crying. XD

[Ganymede]

@wizz said in Random links:

This song is beautiful you guys, I have no idea how I'd never heard it. It had a grown man ugly crying. XD

I'll raise you.