Accounting for gender imbalances
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@Auspice said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Sparks said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Auspice said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
My father is a developer. Apparently he used to, if he saw a job he was interested in but didn't know the language, put it on his resume, apply, then go out and buy a couple books to teach it to himself leading up to any potential interview.
So, so many guys do this. So many.
I mean, he managed to pull it off but it baffles me to this day. I can't learn shit like that. I'm over here trying to switch gears from learning python to ruby and I wanna cry sometimes. XD
whispers into your soul Python is better. Stay with the Python...
In fairness, Ruby's actually a perfectly fine language and well worth learning. I'm personally just used to using Python on a daily basis to create CI build scripts at work, for machine learning stuff (which is primarily in Python these days, it feels like), and so on. After so much Python, doing Ruby always feels like I'm driving someone else's car for a bit; I know how to do everything, but the windshield wiper toggle is in the wrong place, the parking brake is a pedal versus a stick, etc. So I just have to force my mind into Ruby mode instead of thinking Pythonically, and that annoys me enough that I default to Python for things.
(That said, I wish that they'd gotten the Ruby-style safe navigation operators into Python prior to the not-yet-released 3.8 version; i.e., Python's upcoming
?.equivalent to Ruby's&.operator. C'mon, guys. This thing is sanity-preserving, and should've been in Python 3 from the start.)a.k.a. Packetdancer (or "Pax" for short)
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@Arkandel said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Caryatid Do you think the gender imbalance is something that ought to be addressed in the interview?
For instance does a question such as "we're currently a team consisted only of men, how do you feel about that?" sound like we're preparing to listen for feedback and keep things professional, safe and constructive or signal we might be shedding too much of a spotlight on gender right out of the gate?
yeah absolutely don't ask that kind of thing. For reasons people have noted.
But also..what is wrong with your company, that you've never had a woman on this team, ever? Maybe you should hire all the women. Start making a dent in that problem.
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@Kanye-Qwest said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
But also..what is wrong with your company, that you've never had a woman on this team, ever? Maybe you should hire all the women. Start making a dent in that problem.
I admit I'm lucky; in my company, one of the three DoE (director of engineering; one for software, one for electrical, one for mechanical) roles is filled by a woman. Two program leads (the people who report directly to their DoE and keep that engineering discipline running smoothly, and mentor other engineers) are women. About 10 of the engineers, across all disciplines, are women, as are more than half of the project managers. (And, as is true at many companies, most of the HR and finance departments.)
But it's still like... maybe 28 women, total, in the Seattle office? Out of around 110 people? It's way better than a lot of places I've worked, yes, but that's still only around 26%.
a.k.a. Packetdancer (or "Pax" for short)
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@Sparks yeah it's not great at my company either, but we have teams of people working on it, on recruiting undergrads and partnering with STEM facilitation community programs for the future, which I love. We had a Black Girls Code workshop here recently.
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@Sparks said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Auspice said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Sparks said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Auspice said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
My father is a developer. Apparently he used to, if he saw a job he was interested in but didn't know the language, put it on his resume, apply, then go out and buy a couple books to teach it to himself leading up to any potential interview.
So, so many guys do this. So many.
I mean, he managed to pull it off but it baffles me to this day. I can't learn shit like that. I'm over here trying to switch gears from learning python to ruby and I wanna cry sometimes. XD
whispers into your soul Python is better. Stay with the Python...
In fairness, Ruby's actually a perfectly fine language and well worth learning. I'm personally just used to using Python on a daily basis to create CI build scripts at work, for machine learning stuff (which is primarily in Python these days, it feels like), and so on. After so much Python, doing Ruby always feels like I'm driving someone else's car for a bit; I know how to do everything, but the windshield wiper toggle is in the wrong place, the parking brake is a pedal versus a stick, etc. So I just have to force my mind into Ruby mode instead of thinking Pythonically, and that annoys me enough that I default to Python for things.
(That said, I wish that they'd gotten the Ruby-style safe navigation operators into Python prior to the not-yet-released 3.8 version; i.e., Python's upcoming
?.equivalent to Ruby's&.operator. C'mon, guys. This thing is sanity-preserving, and should've been in Python 3 from the start.)I'd admittedly rather stick to Python! But I'm working on an Ares game and after that discussion the other day on improving events listings I want to tweak the event code to see if some of the ideas that were discussed could work.
I have that thing where I sorta get what I'm looking at but I'm not sure what I need to do with it yet. I'd probably be well on my way to breaking things if it were python.
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@Arkandel said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
For instance does a question such as "we're currently a team consisted only of men, how do you feel about that?" sound like we're preparing to listen for feedback and keep things professional, safe and constructive or signal we might be shedding too much of a spotlight on gender right out of the gate?
I think anyone who works in tech is already aware of and used to the imbalance. (I have frequently been the only woman on my team.) Calling attention to it like that seems like an uncomfortable spotlight that would probably be taken the wrong way.
I will also second everything that @Sparks said. Particularly the issue about writing actual code under pressure. Sure it sounds good on paper as a live skills test, but for introverted people and/or women (and lucky me as an introverted woman) it can be particularly nerve-wracking.
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@Sparks said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
In fairness, Ruby's actually a perfectly fine language and well worth learning. I'm personally just used to using Python on a daily basis to create CI build scripts at work, for machine learning stuff (which is primarily in Python these days, it feels like), and so on. After so much Python, doing Ruby always feels like I'm driving someone else's car for a bit; I know how to do everything, but the windshield wiper toggle is in the wrong place, the parking brake is a pedal versus a stick, etc. So I just have to force my mind into Ruby mode instead of thinking Pythonically, and that annoys me enough that I default to Python for things.
Side tangent. I think that's just a matter of being used to one vs the other. I think that Python is a perfectly fine language as well, but as someone who learned Ruby first, there's just a cognitive dissonance because things are similar enough to feel like: "Oh! I know this!" But different enough to be like: "Crap, that totally doesn't work."
Ares started out in Python, but there were roadblocks that proved easier to overcome in Ruby.
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As a woman who excelled in a coding bootcamp and received a 4.0 while finishing a degree in Software Dev, I've largely given up trying to find a job in tech because I'm the worst interviewee and generally terrified of men. I'm not sure why I decided to get a degree in a field dominated by them. Add in my now sizable gap in work history, and I'm basically unhireable despite not sucking at the actual programming stuff. I get kind of angry when my friend tells me about her incompetent lead who got his job because he aced his interview while I can't get a job at all, and they won't promote her over hiring external guys who happen to interview well.
I wish I had something more constructive to add, but everyone else seems to have covered anything I would've said.
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@Kanye-Qwest said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Sparks yeah it's not great at my company either, but we have teams of people working on it, on recruiting undergrads and partnering with STEM facilitation community programs for the future, which I love. We had a Black Girls Code workshop here recently.
I think it's going to be better going forward. We're much nearer parity with our paid interns lately, especially in electrical engineering.
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@PuppyBreath said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
As a woman who excelled in a coding bootcamp and received a 4.0 while finishing a degree in Software Dev, I've largely given up trying to find a job in tech because I'm the worst interviewee and generally terrified of men. I'm not sure why I decided to get a degree in a field dominated by them. Add in my now sizable gap in work history, and I'm basically unhireable despite not sucking at the actual programming stuff. I get kind of angry when my friend tells me about her incompetent lead who got his job because he aced his interview while I can't get a job at all, and they won't promote her over hiring external guys who happen to interview well.
I wish I had something more constructive to add, but everyone else seems to have covered anything I would've said.
As someone else who suuuuucks at interviewing, I feel you. I have extensive experience in a number of things now and I keep getting the dreaded 'They were very impressed with your skills, but decided to move forward with another candidate' which I have learned is likely code for 'You were awkward af in the interview'
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@faraday said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
Side tangent. I think that's just a matter of being used to one vs the other. I think that Python is a perfectly fine language as well, but as someone who learned Ruby first, there's just a cognitive dissonance because things are similar enough to feel like: "Oh! I know this!" But different enough to be like: "Crap, that totally doesn't work."
Oh, definitely that. It's whatever you used first, or whatever you use most often. I'm getting a little rusty in Java, even though I've known it longer, because everything I would've done in Java for Android test harnesses and such I'm now doing in Kotlin. I've been toying with Ares on the side, experimenting with adding some features, and even just doing that has been exercising the metaphorical muscle memory (i.e., the "oh, right, I can do this that way in Ruby" knowledge); now switching between the two feels like the difference between driving my car and my housemate's car, versus driving my car and a random rental car.
Which—back on topic!—is why I do like to find out when interviewing someone what the language they're most comfortable in is. Like, if you are interviewing for the team that's responsible for cloud/enterprise components of an ecosystem? If you write all your stuff in Ruby these days, it would be somewhat cruel of me to then test you in Java, even if you know both; I want to see how you work through the problem presented, not watch you stumble with "oops, the gear shift is on the center console here rather than a stick on the steering column" as you try to adjust to a different language.
(If you answer that your preferred language is PHP, though, that should honestly be grounds for instant disqualification.)
@PuppyBreath said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
As a woman who excelled in a coding bootcamp and received a 4.0 while finishing a degree in Software Dev, I've largely given up trying to find a job in tech because I'm the worst interviewee and generally terrified of men.
I feel you on the nervous interview thing. I think six years of being in a hybrid engineering/management position where I actually have to review resumes and do interviews—as well as being in a client-facing role where I have to talk to clients—has done wonders for letting me feel more in-control and collected when in a meeting or interview where I might otherwise feel nervous, but that really just sort of allows me to hit 'snooze' on the nervousness.
(Which means I will then leave said situation, go somewhere private, and go "WAAAAUGH" as the snooze button runs out and the nervousness hits at once.)
@PuppyBreath said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
I'm not sure why I decided to get a degree in a field dominated by them. Add in my now sizable gap in work history, and I'm basically unhireable despite not sucking at the actual programming stuff.
Putting on my "hi I have hiring responsibilities" hat, I can say that while a sizable gap in work history would earn a raised eyebrow from me, that's easily made up for—at least to me—if you have side projects out there you can point to. Especially side-projects that are open source and on Github. I love those! Please include things on Github in your resume! Then I can see your coding style! I can see if your commits are nicely separated into bite-size updates or if you have giant commits touching the entire code tree at once encompassing like two weeks of work! (Why do people do this?? That's not how source control is supposed to work! It wasn't how it was supposed to work even before git's distributed model!)
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I've been the only woman in my department for a long time. That's now starting to change, but when I first started I didn't even clue in to the fact I was the only woman until a new hire asked me if being the only woman in IT was tough. I'd honestly never thought about it before. Then I moved into a position where my boss sexually and just straight up harassed me (and others) for years and was promoted out of trouble thee times!
Your best intentions here aren't helpful. You're already labeling this theoretical woman the "other" when you should probably just be more focused on building a team that's not full of assholes that would make someone who wasn't a techbro (and there are lots more designations in there than just 'omg woman') feel out of place. You know what makes a woman feel comfortable? Getting a cool job and not having to put up with bullshit day in and day out about lol a girl thinks she knows computers or having people second guess what she's doing just because she's lacking a penis or having people ask if she feels comfortable surrounded by men. We aren't these sensitive glass things that need a workplace to take great care with us. You want to build a great team? Someone else said it already but hire all women!
If someone in an interview ever asked me if I felt comfortable being the only woman in a department I'd nope out of there so fast because they'd be letting me know they expect it to be a problem.
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@Sparks said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
Putting on my "hi I have hiring responsibilities" hat, I can say that while a sizable gap in work history would earn a raised eyebrow from me, that's easily made up for—at least to me—if you have side projects out there you can point to. Especially side-projects that are open source and on Github. I love those! Please include things on Github in your resume! Then I can see your coding style! I can see if your commits are nicely separated into bite-size updates or if you have giant commits touching the entire code tree at once encompassing like two weeks of work! (Why do people do this?? That's not how source control is supposed to work! It wasn't how it was supposed to work even before git's distributed model!)
I feel so called out right now for --squashing my commits.
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@Tehom said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Sparks said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
Putting on my "hi I have hiring responsibilities" hat, I can say that while a sizable gap in work history would earn a raised eyebrow from me, that's easily made up for—at least to me—if you have side projects out there you can point to. Especially side-projects that are open source and on Github. I love those! Please include things on Github in your resume! Then I can see your coding style! I can see if your commits are nicely separated into bite-size updates or if you have giant commits touching the entire code tree at once encompassing like two weeks of work! (Why do people do this?? That's not how source control is supposed to work! It wasn't how it was supposed to work even before git's distributed model!)
I feel so called out right now for --squashing my commits.
Seriously, it is actually considered very bad practice at my workplace. Leaving commits in smaller chunks makes it /way/ easier to figure out which change exactly broke a build or introduced some kind of instability, and to roll just that change back. It's really important on firmware projects.
a.k.a. Packetdancer (or "Pax" for short)
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@Sparks said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
Seriously, it is actually considered very bad practice at my workplace. Leaving commits in smaller chunks makes it /way/ easier to figure out which change exactly broke a build or introduced some kind of instability, and to roll just that change back. It's really important on firmware projects.
Totally derailing the subject, but we use squashed commits for PRs because when you've got dozens of devs all contributing to the same codebase, you don't need to be spammed with everyone's: "Doing X" "More X" "Fixing X" "Unit tests for X" "Typo in fix for X" iterations along the way. A single squashed PR commit for "X" is the way to go. This assumes that your PRs are reasonable and you aren't tackling 17 features or changing the world in a single PR.
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@Arkandel I've been in my current IT Ops group for over 7 years now, and here is my advice:
Build a team who can do the job.
What you're in is a Catch-22 with your politics. At the end of the day, IT is about skills and experience. It's a Catch-22 because if you take a female candidate who isn't as skilled as another male candidate, your team will suffer. If you give a woman a bump out of bias, then you're not hiring her solely for her skills, which isn't right either. At the end of the day, all you can do is build your team with the best people you can get, and if that ends up being a diverse team? Great. If not? It was the applications you had available at the time.
You will know, deep inside, if you hired the wrong candidate for the wrong reasons. It may work out, it may not, but you'll always feel it in your gut.
I work with a fairly diverse culture. Plenty of men and women, and many from China, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Japan, Russia, and Canada. I can tell you that not a one would be alright with having gotten a sort of socio-political bump over their skill set to support their gender/culture/religious tropes.
A good IT boss looks for skills and chemistry. Be a good boss, put together your elite squad, and then whatever mix of cultures and genders you end up with, be supportive of them. Also, whatever you do, never mention their diversity as a deciding factor in the interviews. They'll love you for being excited about their brains.
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man -
@Ghost said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
What you're in is a Catch-22 with your politics....I can tell you that not a one would be alright with having gotten a sort of socio-political bump over their skill set to support their gender/culture/religious tropes.
While I agree that nobody should be hired solely because of their gender/culture/etc. if they can't do the job, there are well-documented systemic biases and challenges that do require conscious thought and effort to combat. It's very easy for somebody to fall into the trap of thinking that "the best person for a job" is somebody exactly like them, who does the job in the same way they do. And that's the kind of BS thinking that leads to non-diverse workplaces.
ETA - There are a ton of articles about bias in hiring decisions. Here's a nice one: 7 Practical Ways to Reduce Bias in Your Hiring Process, and its lead paragraph is pretty spot-on:
A vast body of research shows that...unconscious racism, ageism, and sexism play a big role in who gets hired.
If something is unconscious, it takes conscious thought to overcome it, so it's good that @Arkandel is taking the time to think about these things.
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Honestly, in regards to some of what @Sparks said and things I've read in the past:
Actually reading resumes vs. just letting software zip through them is one of the best parts. Software that vets resumes seems to do a miserable fucking job with IT resumes to begin with and when you factor in what Sparks said about how women construct theirs, it becomes a bit more obvious why the software might not grab theirs.
Humans are still better at reasoning than machines. So really, that's the thing I wish more companies would do: actually review the resumes. Don't just take whatever the computer spits out for you. (Esp. since by god I've been told Company A* expects a multi-page document and then Company B-D wants a one-page and ...)
*Dell is like this, in case you were wondering. I've had a few recruiters fuss at me about how I need to expand my resume into multiple pages with a full page of references because 'one page resumes are wrong!!!!11' and it's all Dell. Dell is ridiculous. But if you've ever applied there with a one-pager and not heard back.......there you go.
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@faraday said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Ghost said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
What you're in is a Catch-22 with your politics....I can tell you that not a one would be alright with having gotten a sort of socio-political bump over their skill set to support their gender/culture/religious tropes.
While I agree that nobody should be hired solely because of their gender/culture/etc. if they can't do the job, there are well-documented systemic biases and challenges that do require conscious thought and effort to combat. It's very easy for somebody to fall into the trap of thinking that "the best person for a job" is somebody exactly like them, who does the job in the same way they do. And that's the kind of BS thinking that leads to non-diverse workplaces.
ETA - There are a ton of articles about bias in hiring decisions. Here's a nice one: 7 Practical Ways to Reduce Bias in Your Hiring Process, and its lead paragraph is pretty spot-on:
A vast body of research shows that...unconscious racism, ageism, and sexism play a big role in who gets hired.
If something is unconscious, it takes conscious thought to overcome it, so it's good that @Arkandel is taking the time to think about these things.
Oh all of this is solid advice. Not long ago my whole division went through an unconscious bias training that was totally in my wheelhouse; I loved it. When you really think about it, bias plays a huge role in all kinds of baseline assumptions, and keeping your bias in check isn't a thing you succeed at; it's a muscle you have to always train.
For me, my work-hiring bias comes from having had to deal with unprofessional management giving bennies to their friends, and some coworkers who for the life of me I can't understand why they keep getting promoted despite having very few of the actual skills required for the job. So I'm at risk in my bias when it comes to candidates who say stuff that strokes those hackles.
Hence my advice to Ark. Which was biased.
Unconscious bias training is rad, and my zen Whitman transcendental Aurelius-loving ass couldn't get enough of it.
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@Ghost said in Accounting for gender imbalances:
@Arkandel I've been in my current IT Ops group for over 7 years now, and here is my advice:
Build a team who can do the job.
What you're in is a Catch-22 with your politics. At the end of the day, IT is about skills and experience. It's a Catch-22 because if you take a female candidate who isn't as skilled as another male candidate, your team will suffer. If you give a woman a bump out of bias, then you're not hiring her solely for her skills, which isn't right either. At the end of the day, all you can do is build your team with the best people you can get, and if that ends up being a diverse team? Great. If not? It was the applications you had available at the time.
You will know, deep inside, if you hired the wrong candidate for the wrong reasons. It may work out, it may not, but you'll always feel it in your gut.
I work with a fairly diverse culture. Plenty of men and women, and many from China, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Japan, Russia, and Canada. I can tell you that not a one would be alright with having gotten a sort of socio-political bump over their skill set to support their gender/culture/religious tropes.
A good IT boss looks for skills and chemistry. Be a good boss, put together your elite squad, and then whatever mix of cultures and genders you end up with, be supportive of them. Also, whatever you do, never mention their diversity as a deciding factor in the interviews. They'll love you for being excited about their brains.
