What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?

[Derp]

@Ganymede said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

@faraday said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

MUSH games are not very good about setting expectations of what kind of game they are, and players are not very good about respecting those boundaries even when they are established.

I concur, but write to add that most players are simply unwilling to learn the rules of a novel game, and would prefer to twist it to suit their attitudes rather than adapt.

^THIS.

It's like pulling teeth to get people to read the core books of the game I run, much less the wiki or news files. They just assume they're right and that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Ganymede]

@Derp said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

It's like pulling teeth to get people to read the core books of the game I run, much less the wiki or news files. They just assume they're right and that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

It is far easier to accept the ruling and adapt than to waste your time contesting a decision that will not be overturned no matter how loud you mewl.

[Apos]

@faraday said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

@Ganymede said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

Unsurprisingly, I enjoy playing both bridge and poker.

There's nothing wrong either game, and certainly nothing wrong with liking both.

What happens too often in MUSH land, though, is that you have people who are:

a) Showing up to a bridge tournament expecting to play poker and then getting disappointed.
b) Trying to play both bridge and poker simultaneously with the same deck of cards and acting shocked when that doesn't work out.
c) Badmouthing those who prefer a different type of card game than they do.
or some variation of the above.

MUSH games are not very good about setting expectations of what kind of game they are, and players are not very good about respecting those boundaries even when they are established.

I've had so many headaches with players just not being able to understand cultural differences at all and game styles, even without the headaches of boundary violations. Just the very basic, 'how does someone find RP', 'how much ooc communication is appropriate here', 'how does the game handle conflict resolution', 'how formal is ooc communication', 'how much handwaving happens in the game', 'is it immersive and organic or more scheduled in style', etc, etc, these vary so wildly from game to game that the potential for misunderstanding is just enormous and pretty much nothing most players think is 'common sense' for unspoken MU rules are universal.

[dvoraen]

@Ganymede said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

@faraday said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

MUSH games are not very good about setting expectations of what kind of game they are, and players are not very good about respecting those boundaries even when they are established.

I concur, but write to add that most players are simply unwilling to learn the rules of a novel game, and would prefer to twist it to suit their attitudes rather than adapt.

If only I could keep this in the forefront of my head. I'm definitely guilty of this part. Someone recently compared it to tabletop gaming, and I'm like...... "Why did I never draw a parallel between these two?" as far as how I treat it. I definitely treat D&D differently than I have MU*ing, so that particular association was rather enlightening, in its way.

[Warma Sheen]

@Sunny said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

I've totally given that up in favor of #1 priority being 'everyone enjoying themselves' -- it doesn't always work, and sometimes there are conflicting goals and things, but I think it's a better approach to the hobby than IC being sacrosanct like I used to feel.

It is a good approach. I just hate when people use that as a shield of impunity to whine and complain about consequences because that's not fun for them i.e. it would ruin the character, or that's not where the character progression would go, or it takes away my agency, etc....

It is made worse by people's openness to what they consider "enjoyment". Some people won't have fun if any bit of control is taken away from them. Example: Every time there is a game plot that holds PCs in a particular location, like a big storm or a magical barrier, for any length of time without fail there are people complaining that "it is killing their rp." They can't or won't expand their horizons to enjoy themselves and many times the same people complaining about lost rp are the ones who sit ooc 24/7 and never rp anyway.

It gets exhausting sometimes to try to go through options A to Q trying to find a response that the other person will accept without complaint or snark until you just have to give up and say 'Okay, nevermind, My character will just completely ignore that you wrecked his business for shits and giggles'. You really can't be responsible for other people's enjoyment.

But this is why people clique up. Because if you find good people to play with who share the mentality that everyone's enjoyment is important, it rocks socks.

Add that to my list. I used to think cliques hurt games because people got left out, now I don't think they are all that bad. I definitely understand the appeal to RP just with friends and people with shared values. So much more enjoyable.

[Sunny]

@Warma-Sheen

Yeah, for sure. But making something a priority (everyone's enjoyment) over continuity does not mean I don't/can't recognize someone taking advantage of that, and it doesn't mean that I don't take my own fun into consideration as part of that. If someone is unreasonable at me, I don't prioritize them. It's a general philosophy/pov, not a mandate from heaven. I sure as hell am not going to bother with A through Q, I'm probably going to stop at C, maybe D if I'm feeling really generous.

It just means that I think that 'enjoyment' has more weight than 'continuity' or even 'consistency'. All are still important to me, and there's a scale.

[Ganymede]

@Sunny said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

It just means that I think that 'enjoyment' has more weight than 'continuity' or even 'consistency'. All are still important to me, and there's a scale.

I concur, but write separately to state that "continuity" and "consistency" can often be re-written to promote "enjoyment," but not always. If the adjustment to continuity and consistency results in diminishing the enjoyment for other players or staff, it needs to be questioned.

[Sunny]

@Ganymede

And pants get put on one leg at a time, yup.

[Ominous]

@dvoraen That is a bit surprising, especially considering how many MU*s are based on WoD, a tabletop game. Did you think they were more akin to LARPs? I could see that.

[dvoraen]

@Ominous said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

@dvoraen That is a bit surprising, especially considering how many MU*s are based on WoD, a tabletop game. Did you think they were more akin to LARPs? I could see that.

I think in my case it had to do with the MUD mindset of "I MUST ADVANCE MY CHARACTER" in a very quantifiable and obvious way, and that somehow translated into "My story needs to be better than X's." when I made the transition from MUDs to more heavily RP-based games. So yeah, a very selfish mindset, which is not how I look at D&D at all.

[Trix]

I'm not certain that I can say that I have regrets when it comes to the hobby, but I wish that I had more fully understood the cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes when I began hopping between the two years ago. Players just behave differently and it can drive you insane if you carry a MUSH mentality to a MUD or vice versa.

There are even the few games that are having an identity crisis and can't figure out what they want to be. Hardcoded game elements with a focus on RP and lore can be a blast IF you don't have trolls running hither and yon all over the server. Alternatively, an RP focused game with very few hardcoded combat elements can leave people at loose ends when it comes to needed real consequence for serious IG scenarios. Some games are balanced and documented enough to handle these challenges for newcomers and veterans to have fun together, others just aren't.

The main lesson I learned is that there is too much sadness in the world to make others unhappy by not being upfront with each other. I used to be hurt and confused if I people attached negativity to my words or seemed as if they didn't like me. Now I examine the conversation and wonder what caused them to take negative meaning from what was typed. People don't always agree and I don't have to assume blame for other's projected insecurities. When I MEAN to insult someone, there will be no doubt that I did, and there may even be an accompanying diagram. Otherwise, I will "Harm none".

[Thenomain]

@Sunny said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

making something a priority (everyone's enjoyment) over continuity does not mean I don't/can't recognize someone taking advantage of that

This.

It doesn't surprise me that some people don't understand the PTSD° of surviving some of the worst, most self-centered staff and overbearing, self-righteous players.

The quote above is a sign of healing.

---

° This is not to demean anyone with battlefield- or domenstic-style PTSD. My heart goes out to all who do.

[Sunny]

@Thenomain said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

@Sunny said in What MU/RPG opinions have you changed or maintained?:

making something a priority (everyone's enjoyment) over continuity does not mean I don't/can't recognize someone taking advantage of that

This.

It doesn't surprise me that some people don't understand the PTSD° of surviving some of the worst, most self-centered staff and overbearing, self-righteous players.

The quote above is a sign of healing.

---

° This is not to demean anyone with battlefield- or domenstic-style PTSD. My heart goes out to all who do.

Lol, hey. It IS a sign of healing, and I didn't really recognize that. Thanks. I have been doing a LOT of healing work the last few years, after the hell of my younger years, and it's neat to recognize it happening in areas I'm not really actively working on.

Also, as someone who does deal with PTSD of the non-combat variety, I do think it is a reasonable way to discuss this variety, because it IS what it is. Trauma is trauma, and how human creatures deal with it is the thing.

[Thenomain]

@Sunny

Right, but there are a lot of people who say, "It's just a game; get over it." I can't blame them for not understanding or not wanting to deal with someone else's brokenness.

But goddamn, even normal people should learn how to say "no" without being an asshole about it.

[surreality]

@Thenomain Amusingly enough, only when I read that did I realize one of the things I can safely say I've evolved a different response to.

Namely, I have less patience for people who will throw 'it's just a game, get over it!' at anyone who has an issue with their behavior, but will pitch an unholy fit any time something even seems to be going other than their preferred way. (Or explode when someone says this to them.)

Basically, my patience for 'But that's different!!!' when the only functional difference is that it's them rather than anyone else has an expiration date. (This is fairly broad-ranging, but this situational example works well.) I'll only engage with these people with full empathy for so long before I begin to distance myself from them unless they seem to be cluing in.