The Basketball Thread

[Warma Sheen]

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

For starters he is sending an inconsistent message as well as a wrong one. For example in the interviews he gave lately he suggested people can't be educated and shouldn't criticize situations about far-away places they've not experienced themselves; what about Akron, Ohio? I'm not a black kid being abused by the police there, should I not care? And if I do why wouldn't I care about Chinese kids in Hong Kong openly threatened by a superpower's Head of State with 'shattered bones'?

I haven't seen or heard of any interviews like that. I tried to find them but couldn't. If you could link those, I'd definitely like to check them out.

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

So what is the worse case scenario here? LeBron got slower than normal room service while he was there? He's in the final few years of his career and has a guaranteed $1B contract with Nike alone - are we supposed to feel bad because he might make less money going forward?

He's not just talking about himself. There are others on both the Nets and the Lakers that don't have his pull or his money. And what about the equipment manager? What about the assistant equipment manager. There are a lot of people in the NBA team wagon who don't have LeBron's money or pull who are also there with him when this goes down who are also targets. And they aren't in Hong Kong where support for the fight for democracy is high. They are in Shenzhen and Shanghai, where the opposite is true.

So no, the worst case scenario isn't just slow room service. Its more like having things thrown at you, people spitting on you, knives waved at you, or having to lock yourself in your room like a prisoner to avoid something happening to you. When he says he and his teammates got to spend a lot more time together, he's not talking about going out partying at the clubs together. Just the fact that they flew all the way out to China to try to promote basketball there, all of which was negated by this guy's one tweet which could have been done in the MONTHS before or any time after, has to be frustrating. None of which I'd be happy or okay with. Especially not for someone else's ill-timed tweet. Especially not from someone that won't even stand behind it to save their own job. Screw that. If anything, James was exceptionally calm about it.

And as he said, it wasn't about the content of the message that annoyed LeBron, it was that other people had to deal with the inevitable fallout. He said freedom of speech has consequences. It does. He said other people have to suffer them sometimes. They do. Here's the full initial interview in case anyone is interested. If there are more, please link them. I'd like to see if there was more he said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjM43blzaRc

On a further note, I understand that some people will take any opportunity to hate on LeBron James. He's been disliked for a long time by a lot of people in a lot of places for a lot of different reasons. I have at different times been part of that group. I would like to point out, though, as unpopular as the opinion might be: I think its super disingenuous to nitpick one person to try to turn them into this Communist super-supporter when almost everyone continues to choose their own financial and person interests over condemning China.

How many people in the US just got that new Call of Duty mobile game? It was like #2 on iTunes the day it came out a few weeks ago. How many people still buy things 'made in China'? It is super hypocritical to try to bash on LeBron for being concerned about money when the entire country continues to support China financially while ignoring its long track record for human rights abuses, long before this thing in Hong Kong which has been a 20 year inevitability since the UK withdrew. Is there anyone who hasn't deferred to China's favor? Mercedes, Apple, Marvel, Versace, CBS, whoever just made the Top Gun sequel and decided that in the last 20 years the Taiwanese flag patch just happened to fall off of Maverick's jacket... Its everyone, including every day US citizens, the same ones portraying LeBron as the devil. China makes sure of it. But it is so easy for people to hate on others then do nothing themselves.

Just pointing that out in case it got lost.

Also, I'm not sure why I'm wound up about this. I'm not even a big LeBron fan. I respect him a lot more than I did in his younger years, but I'm no fan. But this really bugged me.

[Arkandel]

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

He's not just talking about himself. There are others on both the Nets and the Lakers that don't have his pull or his money. And what about the equipment manager? What about the assistant equipment manager. There are a lot of people in the NBA team wagon who don't have LeBron's money or pull who are also there with him when this goes down who are also targets. And they aren't in Hong Kong where support for the fight for democracy is high. They are in Shenzhen and Shanghai, where the opposite is true.

Everything else aside, don't you think that all these people feeling a sovereign government might lash out at them over a completely different person in sort-of kind-of the same line of work as themselves said something on twitter is a pretty damning thought in and of itself? Fearing for their safety - and despite protections, both diplomatic and physical? Over what someone else said somewhere?

LeBron gave those interviews after he was back in the US. Did you see any comments made about protecting or standing up for all those people who enjoyed none of those protections and didn't get to simply fly away from the problem altogether?

No, of course he's not the only one being hypocritical here. Of course there are vast industries enjoying profitable relationships with China even though the regime is violently suppressing its own people. Of course there are millions of buyers purchasing products made there instead of punishing that regime with their wallets.

But just that's not what this conversation is - not every conversation is about everything. LeBron specifically and publicly wanted to play the role of a man who won't shut up and dribble, and he's failed to live up to that when real money was on the line.

[Auspice]

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

LeBron specifically and publicly wanted to play the role of a man who won't shut up and dribble, and he's failed to live up to that when real money was on the line.

[Warma Sheen]

@Auspice said in The Basketball Thread:

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

LeBron specifically and publicly wanted to play the role of a man who won't shut up and dribble, and he's failed to live up to that when real money was on the line.

Not true at all.

What LeBron wants isn't to champion everyone's cause everywhere. Like you said. It isn't all or nothing. He'll speak up for what he believes in when he wants to. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Or... are you saying that because he spoke up on that issue that's now obligated to speak up on all issues?

And bullshit that real money wasn't on the line when he did speak up about the way police treat black people in the US. That's also just not true. Quite the opposite.

Every endorsement LeBron has, of which he makes more money on than the salary he draws playing basketball ($89m total, $53m off court), was at risk by entering an exceptionally volatile conversation both personally and professionally by wearing those shirts at games. Because like he said, actions have consequences. And despite repeatedly saying what his issues were, people wanted to make them about something else: disrespecting the flag, not supporting the troops. And then people bought into that and labeled him unAmerican. Whatever. And LeBron had no idea what endorsements would decide that he's too political to represent them. He put all his money at risk.

It doesn't obligate him to be the world's protector whenever they want to speak up. It isn't up to everyone else to decide what he needs to stand up and protect.

[Arkandel]

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

Or... are you saying that because he spoke up on that issue that's now obligated to speak up on all issues?

He didn't have to speak at all. If he had done nothing I would have been fine with it - there's no reason or way for someone to champion all fights.

But he did, and he spoke against others taking a stand.

[Warma Sheen]

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

Or... are you saying that because he spoke up on that issue that's now obligated to speak up on all issues?

He didn't have to speak at all. If he had done nothing I would have been fine with it - there's no reason or way for someone to champion all fights.

But he did, and he spoke against others taking a stand.

He didn't. He spoke about the way it was done and the affect it had on others. He didn't say anything about the content of the message. He said that specifically.

[Deleted]

@Warma-Sheen His lack of dialogue on the content of the message was itself a comment on the content of the message.

Inaction is a form of action.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

He didn't have to speak at all. If he had done nothing I would have been fine with it - there's no reason or way for someone to champion all fights.

This is sort of clap-trap is frustratingly naive. Your silence can and will be used against you in the public court of opinion.

LeBron has other concerns than basketball that aren’t half as selfish as people presume. He’s demonstrated his philanthropy in a way that inspires other basketball players.

He had to say something and what he said was absolutely appropriate under the circumstances. Everyone has a right to criticize the Chinese; but everyone has a right to point out that actions have consequences. Or, as they say in America, if you don’t like it get the fuck out.

[Warma Sheen]

I don't think Morey knew the kind of backlash he would receive for himself, for his team or for the NBA as a whole. Admittedly, I wouldn't have thought one little tweet would have had such a major reaction. I was just as ignorant. But once I looked up a little bit about it, I learned that this is exactly what China does over things like this even to people much less important than the GM of an NBA franchise. They are ridiculously petty. I didn't know, but I'm not really surprised either.

There are a long list of people that have been targeted by the Chinese political machine. They had a Mariott hotel customer-care manager fired for liking a Tweet from a Mariott account because it involved a survey listing Tibet and China as separate countries. A bunch of clothing makers, big and small, have had to apologize publicly on the sovereignty of China for depicting simple silhouette representations of the country of China on clothes without including Taiwan or Tibet or Macao or Hong Kong, or any combination of the above as part of the country. They are super anal and vindictive about stuff like that and have been for a long time.

So in that regard, Morey was definitely ignorant. Either that or he knew what might happen and just didn't care - which isn't likely based on his apology. However, specifically because the Houston Rockets organization had a special relationship with China, he definitely should have known.

Edit: I'll also add that to me, the craziest part of this whole thing is that after costing untold millions of dollars to the Rockets and the NBA in general with one retweet, he still kept his job.

[Deleted]

Or, conversely, he did what he thought was right and then backed down because nobody backed him up on it.

[Warma Sheen]

@Admiral Maybe. But that just seems... weak... I guess? Not sure the right word for it. To stand up to do what's right, then back down because other people don't support you? And not just back down, but make a full reversal.

Like, I support democracy over communism. And it sucks what people in Hong Kong have coming. But I wouldn't risk all that backlash over a tweet about it - unless I didn't know what I was risking. If he felt that strongly about it, there are probably more meaningful ways to help than a button on an app.

[Auspice]

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

But that just seems... weak... I guess?

That's easy to say. And cruel, too.

I've stood up for what's right before.
And found myself without friends.
And been physically harmed for it.

It's emotionally crushing.
It's miserable.
It's terrible.

So it's really.
fucking.
easy.

To sit there and sneer at a man who did what was right and found himself without anyone by his side.

[Warma Sheen]

@Auspice said in The Basketball Thread:

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

But that just seems... weak... I guess?

That's easy to say. And cruel, too.

It is easy. That's kind of the point. For all of us. Me, you and Morey. We can sit back comfortably from the comfort and safety of being behind our screens and give our opinions without very much risk - that we know of.

But I don't think its cruel. At all. Just calling it like I see it. If you feel strongly enough, stand behind it. If it costs you too much and you tuck your tail, then maybe you did what is best for you and yours. Not saying it is wrong. But own that it was a weak move.

And if we're going personal, I've been on both sides. I think most of us have in way or another. I've stood up for people and had other people stand up with me. And I've stood up for people and gotten my ass kicked, literally, too. And I've been the one that has needed people to stand up for me and no one did, until the truth finally came out, then I got to hear how people "always were on my side".

To sit there and sneer at a man who did what was right and found himself without anyone by his side.

But there's the question about what is 'doing the right thing'. Is a retweet 'doing the right thing'? Personally, I don't think a single retweet quickly retracted is doing much of anything. First a retweet is not even your own thought. And the timing of it is highly suspect. Was he not with the people of Hong Kong the first 5 months? It seems to me he just clicked a button offhand because it was trendy and here in the US we love democracy so why not... and didn't understand the holy hell that was about to rain down on him. And I don't consider that doing the right thing.

People who 'do the right thing' don't always start off intending to. Sometimes it is just something said or done offhand. But when the pressure comes they weather it, even when it takes everything from them whether anyone stands with them or not, because they knew that what they said was right and they were willing to hold to it. Had Morey kept his course, I'd hail him as a hero who did the right thing, but he didn't. He buckled. Again, that doesn't make him a bad person. He's just a guy who has his own concerns and life as well as a basketball team to manage. But he isn't someone who 'did the right thing' in my opinion.

How would you feel if, when you needed someone to stand up for you, and they did, but then when they got withering looks, slunk back down and said, "Nevermind, I was wrong to speak up". Is that 'the right thing'? Maybe it is just a difference in opinion, but I actually think that's ultimately worse.

But before labeling Morey this lonely soul, remember that the man caused a shitstorm and kept his job. You don't keep your job in that situation against the political and economic pressure of the entire nation of China without having more than a few powerful, decision-swaying people on your side. Firing him would have gone a long way to repairing the damage for both the Rockets and the NBA. And they did not. They had his back in a huge way. (Not to mention all the likes and tweets in support of him, which - ironically - don't seem to count as being on his side.)

[Arkandel]

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

But before labeling Morey this lonely soul, remember that the man caused a shitstorm and kept his job. You don't keep your job in that situation against the political and economic pressure of the entire nation of China without having more than a few powerful, decision-swaying people on your side.

I think what made the difference there was the publicity and huge spotlight this entire affair received almost immediately - which is, admittedly, a kind of power and economic pressure altogether. Once that happened and political figures from both side of the fence jumped on it the NBA was put in quite a tough position; if they fired Morey they could stand to lose even more money from endorsements, boycotts, etc... not to mention a potentially dangerous precedent.

Now, granted, if this was some nobody working for the NBA who had tweeted that (the equivalent of that hotel employee you mentioned) I'm really not sure at all he'd not have been fired immediately and without much noise.

My personal opinion is this was a test of sorts by China to see how much their leverage can take them. They played hardball right away and although Adam Silver seemed willing to release a couple of quick statements right away to appease them (in fact two of them, with the US one staying fairly neutral while the Chinese one hilariously condemning Morey, so they conflicted with each other) they kept pushing, and at that point the NBA had to cut their losses and push back.

I'm really interested in seeing where this ends up. The NBA is at such a place these last few years even its off seasons don't really constitute downtime, as there are so many genuine storylines playing themselves out every summer; it's just that it's not often geopolitics end up being one of them.

[Warma Sheen]

I found this link as one of the more recent articles about China's political pressure machine that has a lot of the stuff I mentioned and a few other examples. There's lots of material out there if you're looking for it. This just happens to have a lot of examples in one place and has more on the hotel guy that got fired.

Just in case someone wanted more examples about slighting China, emphasis on 'slight': http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/lebron-jamess-statement-on-china-was-disappointing.html

With 1.4 billion people and being more capitalist than communist in recent years, obviously there is a lot of money to be made in China so I can't imagine anything but a hands off approach to them. But that's why I think a bigger push should be made towards India, who is expected to soon surpass China in population and is less 'hostile' in relation to the US. But no country is perfect and the US has plenty of its own problems so... grain of salt and all that.

The use of sports in aiding diplomacy has a long history, though, in several different countries. So there's more to be gained than just profits with situations like these. Spreading culture and opening lines of communication that weren't there before are more valuable in the long run than they might appear.

And yeah, when you talk about any organization as big as the NBA separating politics and economics isn't realistic, especially once a focus on something draws all eyes. I don't think this situation would have been as bad if not for the current trade war or the US issues with Huawei. China is on the defensive already of all things American and if this is just another proxy battle, then the US lost handily and exposed one of its greatest weaknesses: $$$