The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc

Ghost

@Tinuviel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

And people here have long memories. Or logs.

Passed my willpower check on this one. I didn't make a dick joke here, and want credit for not making it.

But if I had, it would have been: "And no one likes short logs on a Saturday night, right gang???"

But I didn't.

So I'm proud.

Tinuviel

@Ghost That... you know 'log' is slang for poop, right?

Ghost

@Tinuviel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Ghost That... you know 'log' is slang for poop, right?

Well, yeah, but it's also a term for a cylindrical chunk of wood. Like a...you know...penis.

insomniac7809

My $0.02:

If a RP rule is broken in a way that nobody ever finds out about, enforcement is both impossible and pointless.

If two players work out, IDK, an incest kink on Discord in violation of game policy, that falls into 'who knows who cares.'

If some third party brings this to Staff attention... my personal inclination and preference would be for staff and tattletale to mind their damn biznez.

But, if the players take the brotherfucking onto the grid (whether actually TSing or just making RP hay about the love I don't really need to hear about) then the banhammer is entirely justified.

Ghost

@insomniac7809 I agree with that. That's fair.

hedgehog

All things aside, I would really, really like it if players whose PCs get involved romantically with mine would stop using our RP as a means of working out their RL relationship issues and traumas.

Or, at the very least, talk to me OOC about WTF they're going through before pulling all kinds of IC fuckery that leaves me wondering what the actual fuck I'd done to deserve the weirdness and borderline abusive behavior towards my PC.

Tinuviel

After some reflection, I think that yes admin and staff and whoever is in charge of a game should be... concerned about offsite activity that claims to represent their game. Private g-docs full of lurid smut? Whatever. A discord server with a bunch of people on it? That should probably be kept an eye on.

I am aware that outside of their particular game staff's powers are limited, however, their reputation is not. If one's initial exposure to a game is through a discord channel, I think it would behove staff to try their best to keep an eye on any unofficial ones (that they know about) that spring up.

Is it strictly speaking the staff's responsibility? No, no it is not. But strictly speaking, it is not my responsibility to ensure my students don't get into a brawl outside their homes with students from another school. However if they are in uniform, therefore publicly representing our school, I have to care about it because it affects our reputation.

L. B. Heuschkel

@Arkandel If your PC is going to cheat IC on another character do you feel obligated to let your partner's player know?

Yes. Any large plot choices that inevitably will affect a character whose roleplay is tied to mine, needs to be discussed with the player of that other character. Otherwise, the risk of drama migrating from the narrative into the OOC far too high. Also, I do not let them know -- I discuss it with them. Letting them know indicates that I have already decided, and am only informing them as a courtesy.

Do you think you are responsible for a character whose roleplay is related to yours if your paths are to separate? In other words do you feel guilty someone else's PC might become quote/unquote unplayable because of your IC choices?

Yes. Again, communication. Before you enter a relationship between characters, discuss what you want from it. Domestic bliss is a nice goal to have IC, but in actually, it's bloody dull roleplay once you get there. I am far more willing to enter an IC relationship where we have decided in advance that this is a slow burn, long term build-up. Happily ever after is not the plot's purpose -- the journey is.

Very closely related to the above, what if the choice that takes a PC mostly off the table is OOC? For instance if you stop being active on my PC's spouse to play an alt with Theno's PC. Do I have the moral high ground to get pissed off?

Depends. You can't ask someone to keep playing a character that no longer interests them, for whatever reason. You can ask them to provide closure, however, so that the story of your character can move on. Their character may file for divorce, die, move out of the country, anything that works for the both of you, and lets your own character get on with their life.

I've been burned on this one a few times so nowadays I create transient characters. They may enter relationships but their basic attitude to life is that people come and go, and while you may be here today, you might as well be gone tomorrow. Enjoy the other person while they're there, and don't plan too long term.

When it comes to TS what's the correct way to suggest it? Do you let the RP become more explicit until the big words come out or you get told no? Do you page the other player first and explicitly ask if they want to do it? Something else?

TS is not my goal when roleplaying but I will act it out if I feel it has narrative qualities; I'm not interested in text porn for its own sake. At the point where a YA novel would do a fade to black I page the other player and ask their preference, possibly a little earlier. Since none of my characters engage in sexual encounters out of the blue, I imagine that I already am quite aware at this time whether the other player is just in it to get off, in which case I am not likely to engage.

Assuming OOC consent between adult players is there anything in an IC relationship, including TS, that you consider unethical?

No. There are things I personally wouldn't want to be part of roleplaying, but what happens between other, consenting players is none of my business as long as it's done in private.

Pandora

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

If your PC is going to cheat IC on another character do you feel obligated to let your partner's player know?

No. If we both signed up to play a role, my intention is for the characters to deal with the situations presented. Much like the actors in a television series are not given advance warning of their characters being betrayed or killed, in order to keep their portrayals authentic, I believe that there is a watering-down of authenticity when secrets are discovered OOC rather than IC.

Do you think you are responsible for a character whose roleplay is related to yours if your paths are to separate? In other words do you feel guilty someone else's PC might become quote/unquote unplayable because of your IC choices?

I am not responsible for any character I did not apply for. If a character is so closely entwined with mine that the concept no longer works without mine, that's a design fault. Similarly, it is the job of staff to ensure that everyone has a path forward, I am not my rp-brother's keeper unless I've signed up for that responsibility.

Very closely related to the above, what if the choice that takes a PC mostly off the table is OOC? For instance if you stop being active on my PC's spouse to play an alt with Theno's PC. Do I have the moral high ground to get pissed off?

You don't need the moral high ground to be pissed off. We really need to stop emotion-regulating people and telling them when it is/isn't okay to feel a feeling. There is a difference between having a feeling & treating people badly.

Being pissed off - Valid.
Attempting to discuss why you're pissed off and negotiating some terms that all parties involved can deal with - Valid.
OOCly talking shit about the player of your PC spouse and forming an OOC lynch mob against Theno - Invalid.

Run your rough draft of the attempt at communication by a non-MU friend. They'll have no dog in the race and can help you with your tone if that's something important to you; it's easy to come off as aggressive or worse when you're understandably upset.

When it comes to TS what's the correct way to suggest it? Do you let the RP become more explicit until the big words come out or you get told no? Do you page the other player first and explicitly ask if they want to do it? Something else?

If you're suggesting TS before the RP has gotten into TS territory, be careful you don't come off as a creep. I wouldn't do it, but different strokes for different folks. Just like any other sort of RP, approach it ICly the way your character would do so.

People who don't want to TS are generally quite happy to make that apparent, usually by suggesting a FTB or making some sort of (usually endearing) ooc comment/joke to diffuse the situation. Read the room OOCly. If it seems like a no (or even a hesitation) now is the time to discuss.

Do not ever OOCly pressure/cajole anyone to roleplay period, this isn't even TS-specific. I will never understand people who can derive pleasure from the act of being given something the other person doesn't want to give, whether that's a RL rapist or someone that uses whining/pitygaming/coercion to get RP.

Assuming OOC consent between adult players is there anything in an IC relationship, including TS, that you consider unethical? No, I'm not going to give examples since I'm keeping this classy! But you can.

Plenty of things in relationships can be unethical IC, we play monsters, demons, manipulators and murderers all day long. That's part and parcel of playing a role. Nothing one does ICly within the rules of a game can be OOCly unethical, but if you're talking OOC actions, the list is extensive and exhaustive and I won't get into it personally because my own stance is to not talk to people about IC things whenever possible. I'm not here to fuck anyone over OOC, so I'm good.

Any other choices not found in this short list. I'm sure it's far from complete.

Well?

One thing I do find to be a matter of ethics is OOC intent. Many of you know the story of how I was roped into TS (It wasn't bad TS!) with someone that unbeknownst to me had a history of seeking TS in-character, then crying rape IC and OOC to have pity parties and lynch mobs form in defense of her 'too irresistible' PCs.

If your OOC intention in IC interactions/choices is to make life hard for someone OOCly, you're a ~~bad~~ unethical person and I will never RP with you again, and once your character is dead/retired I will certainly be dragging you on MSB if it comes up. Shots fired; keep that dramatic bullshit in your pants, not mine.

Ganymede

@insomniac7809 said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

If two players work out, IDK, an incest kink on Discord in violation of game policy, that falls into 'who knows who cares.'

If some third party brings this to Staff attention... my personal inclination and preference would be for staff and tattletale to mind their damn biznez.

I respectfully dissent.

The integrity of rules is dependent upon consistent enforcement because the only fair and reasonable alternative thereto is complete abandonment. If we presume that staff had an intent when promulgating the rule at issue, then that intent should be respected by players and staff. The punishment may be tempered based on whether the involved parties knew or should have known of the policy (e.g., what if the rule is buried in some random non-germane house rule?) or gained some sort of IC advantage for their players in doing so; however, this does not mean the rule should not be enforced and the violation recognized.

If the rule is truly arbitrary, then it should be stricken, not ignored.

insomniac7809

@Ganymede I'm not saying the rules are arbitrary. A game deciding that they don't want to deal with incest on-grid is a reasonable and entirely legitimate rule to lay out.

But while I'm not entirely saying staff should only rule on things that happen on their server, moderating "non-canon" RP on a discord server seems, like I said, both impossible and pointless.

Roz

@Ganymede I guess it depends on how the policy is set up. For the previously-mentioned Transformers game I once staffed on, the policy re: sexual themes was pretty clearly a matter of public acknowledgment. It was very much a "we don't police your stuff behind closed doors so long as you don't try to bring it out from behind those doors." Similarly, Arx's rule file regarding prohibited themes calls out that they're not interested in policing private RP that's kept private, but that they wouldn't be allowing storylines on those themes to be brought into the public sphere, other people's RP, or the game canon. Incest got added to that list of prohibited themes within the past year mostly because it was deemed to never be fun for players put in the position of having to be IC authority figures for these PCs who were engaging in a very big cultural taboo.

Do I think this means that private RP with incest themes has disappeared from Arx? 100% no. If a game just doesn't want certain themes brought out where anyone but the engaging parties can see them, does it at all matter if people are doing side things on Discord? Nah.

mietze

@Pandora said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

You don't need the moral high ground to be pissed off. We really need to stop emotion-regulating people and telling them when it is/isn't okay to feel a feeling. There is a difference between having a feeling & treating people badly.

Being pissed off - Valid.

Attempting to discuss why you're pissed off and negotiating some terms that all parties involved can deal with - Valid.

OOCly talking shit about the player of your PC spouse and forming an OOC lynch mob against Theno - Invalid.

Run your rough draft of the attempt at communication by a non-MU friend. They'll have no dog in the race and can help you with your tone if that's something important to you; it's easy to come off as aggressive or worse when you're understandably upset.

I really cannot agree with this enough. People feel upset sometimes especially after a disappointment. Ironically I have observed that some of the people who scream the loudest about "OMG its just a game keep your ooc reaction out if it you loser!" tend to be the ones that go thermonuclear if the shoe is on the other foot. People have plans, they get attached to those plans, but when they also depend on other people going along with things or staying out of the way at least, they sometimes get derailed/blown up/sent down another track.

I wish we did better at allowing people those emotions without shaming it, while being less tolerant of explosive /behavior/ towards other players.

Some people though will interpret any discomfort they feel as an attack (I think that is why often times folks who like to wag a finger at people feeling upset over something IC can be so reactive themselves--they do not want to deal with any expression of disappointment y anyone else and that is why they want to claim such wide boundaries for themselves.) And as you say there are definitely people who weaponize being a sad moppet.

I think in interacting with people one has to be tolerant of a discomfort with how they feel that might be different from desired/expected. I do think that many people think about this in the hobby, but sometimes it's pretty difficult to negotiate.

surreality

@mietze said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I wish we did better at allowing people those emotions without shaming it, while being less tolerant of explosive /behavior/ towards other players.

^ This needs to be bronzed.

Pandora

@mietze said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

there are definitely people who weaponize being a sad moppet.

No, we're bronzing this one, if my signature wasn't already perfect, this would be it.

Kestrel

My hot take is this:

Unless you are in an explicitly polyamorous relationship IRL, or have otherwise discussed your TS habits with your RL partner, who is aware and genuinely doesn't mind, TS, and most MU* romance RP, constitutes cheating.

I'm not into polyamory IRL so I don't TS unless I'm single. I just think, if my partner were looking over my shoulder right now, would I be comfortable typing this? If the answer is no, I don't.

As for anything else, things that happen between game characters are IC and should stay IC. I don't feel any kind of obligation to my character's IC partners. That relationship isn't real. I think discussing the ethics of "cheating" on your character's partner is the wrong one to have.

Hoo boy. I'm going to catch flak for this one.

Arkandel

@Pandora said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Much like the actors in a television series are not given advance warning of their characters being betrayed or killed, in order to keep their portrayals authentic, I believe that there is a watering-down of authenticity when secrets are discovered OOC rather than IC.

I'll need to disagree with that specific part. Actors are professionals being paid to do a job and thus there's less need to consider their feelings. Communication with fellow players who're there to be entertained is a different matter.

I'm not saying there should be a warning given, mind you. Just that the comparison here isn't sound.

Pandora

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Pandora said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Much like the actors in a television series are not given advance warning of their characters being betrayed or killed, in order to keep their portrayals authentic, I believe that there is a watering-down of authenticity when secrets are discovered OOC rather than IC.

I'll need to disagree with that specific part. Actors are professionals being paid to do a job and thus there's less need to consider their feelings. Communication with fellow players who're there to be entertained is a different matter.

I'm not saying there should be a warning given, mind you. Just that the comparison here isn't sound.

I'm not making a feelings-based argument, I'm making an ethics-based argument.

Roz

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Pandora said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Much like the actors in a television series are not given advance warning of their characters being betrayed or killed, in order to keep their portrayals authentic, I believe that there is a watering-down of authenticity when secrets are discovered OOC rather than IC.

I'll need to disagree with that specific part. Actors are professionals being paid to do a job and thus there's less need to consider their feelings. Communication with fellow players who're there to be entertained is a different matter.

I'm not saying there should be a warning given, mind you. Just that the comparison here isn't sound.

Yeah, actors actually regularly talk about being given advance notice of their characters being killed off. And it's considered a bit rude/thoughtless for them to end up blindsided, like, learning about their character's death on the day of the first table read.

It's a bad comparison overall, because even if actors don't learn about something until the first table read, that's still -- before they're shooting the scene on the day. Good acting isn't based on the actors themselves being surprised by the script. And generally the instances you hear actors comment about not getting any advanced warning are ones for TV shows that have built into their brand that the most important part is SECRECY and SURPRISE, and that's about reducing the risk of leaks. Not for some sort of authenticity in portrayal. The authenticity comes from acting skill.

Pandora

Okay guys, seriously. We're not really going to find a perfect real-world analogy for pretendy fun-time relationship cheating; it was close and it was apt & I think my point was clear.