Firefly - Still Flyin'

[Otrere]

Okay, I've caught up all of this now that I'm home from work. Quite a lively discussion.

If I can be so bold as to boil down what I'm reading, the chief complaint is something on the lines of: we haven't adequately set up and stated how we will observe or track troublesome players, in a way that lets us deal with them effectively, while also respecting the privacy of our non-troublesome players. (If I've somehow missed another major point, let me know.)

I hear and get the concerns. @Auspice - I agree with you that there needs to be a reasonable expectation of privacy, and we do want that to be established as part of our setup for also dealing with the troublesome sorts that we know will eventually rear their heads at us. Thank you (and @sunny too) for bringing this up, and advocating for it, it's the type of constructive feedback I was hoping to hear.

There have been good suggestions put forward (things like Suspect and Rhost, as well as having a clear setup for tracking/logging complaints). I'll admit to being a bit rusty on my PennMush, so I'll need to do the legwork on all of that. I will. I don't want to guess at the final solution right now, but know that I'm working on it and will report back.

[Prototart]

@Roz said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@GreenFlashlight Eh, I think this is very much a case where people's experiences vary. I've been in the hobby for some two decades and I've never run into it on a game I've been on. People just definitely remember the instances where they run into it.

this is part of the Comic Game Things i have repeatedly been told are anomalous on non-comic places

it’s basically safe to just go ahead & assume that comic staffers will abuse players in any dozen given ways & that mostly they’ll take it bc “well, at least there are players here”

[Otrere]

Scrolling back...

@Ghost said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

Question.

What will the policy be on recreation of Serenity Mush characters and/or whether or not content from Serenity Mush is allowed as canon for this game?

For characters: yes, you can. Just keep in mind that we're using a different time frame. ICly it's 2530, sixteen years earlier than it is on SerenityMush. You'll either need to warp your character back through time, or play a younger version of them. They will also need to follow our chargen policies - using the same starting points as everyone else (we're not preserving anyone's dinosaur status - and that includes me, as I figure out how to bring Donna over).

For content: we're open to that, too. Take a look at our Theme policy here: http://firefly-mush.wikidot.com/policies and also at the FAQ about theme which is linked from there. We just want to review any bigger ideas, to make sure they'll work, before we say yes and make them part of our game.

[Sunny]

@Otrere

Just don't take any of this as gold. You have to be comfortable, and you have to feel.good about.your final solution. Peeps here often have great feedback, but there are also often really really bad ideas, too. Aim for making your target audience happy, not people here. You will never make the people here (all) happy because there are so many, many opposing viewpoints.

That said, I am incredibly impressed with how you have been reacting and responding to.this thread and the concerns brought up. I cannot honestly think of a better answer than your, 'good points, I'll think about it and let you know.' Good show. I'm excited for your game, and I'm excited for a new-to-me game runner that has a good head on their shoulders. Because at the end of the day, that is the sum total of what really matters to me. I expect to hear great things about this project as you progress. Thanks for stepping up to run something.

[Otrere]

@Sunny

Thank you! This isn't the first time I've heard the suggestion to not take everything from this forum as gold, and I do take that to heart. I also appreciate your kind words!

[surreality]

The one issue I have with the suspect flag is that it's a double-edged sword.

On the plus side, you don't get other parties caught in the crossfire.

On the very non-trivial downside, you're going to see one half of a lot of conversations. You're not going to see if the reply to, say, a 'awwwwwyiss that PB is hawt I wanna TS!' sort of page is met with silence, a 'fuck off!', a change of subject (ex: 'I think they suit the look of this character and I've always liked the actor's work, but I didn't choose them because I want to TS with them with anyone ever'), or a 'fuck me now!'

This is often very relevant, and can be hazy as hell when you're only seeing one side of a conversation. Someone continuing to pursue under each of those circumstances has a very different interpretation, and it is not always going to be clear from just one side of the conversation.

Another might be, say, the innocent party saying, 'I have a scene with X but can meet you later' -- super common -- and an observed reply of 'I don't get along with them (notice lack of X being identified here), so I'll see you later.' Outside of context, this can look like a completely harmless exchange -- someone being live and let live re: someone they don't get on with and agreeing to meet up later as suggested -- or it could appear to be something more like 'I don't like that person so see ya later, I'm out'. The latter definitely has a very different vibe. (ETA: Also, with X not being identified, it could be interpreted as part of a bashing routine against someone who isn't even the person mentioned -- or, worse, missed as being precisely that for the same reason.)

So, while it's a handy tool, it is VERY important to be aware of this limitation. Those are just two examples, and I'm sure people could come up with plenty more. We already have a lot of communication issues in this hobby, so this is worrisome in a very real way.

[Derp]

I used to be a fairly letter-of-the-law person when it comes to policies.

Now, I'm super not.

Nobody is going to be pleased by every policy. (And for every person that says they won't play because of X, I guarantee you that 3 out of 5 will be there at some point during the game's tenure. It just happens. It's happened for decades. Big social noises are big and then the jones starts and the curiosity takes over.)

Now, I feel like it's better to explain my intention to players, and to let them know that yes, there is gray area here, and that things may change with or without notice in order to facilitate some thing that I'm shooting for.

I do try to be clear about explicitly what I'm shooting for. I don't try, any more, to document every possible violation in some sort of legal codex because it's more trouble than it's worth and just invites people to try and lawyer.

I lawyer enough in RL and I'm not even a real attorney.

Just tell people what you want to create, and why, and let them know that you will be implementing policies and taking actions in pursuit of those goals. Flesh them out a bit, but don't feel like you have to be so specific that every loophole is accounted for.

There are a lot of paranoid voices on these forums, and frankly, from the numbers of the ones that show up anyway, I think a lot of that is just show. Do what makes you comfortable, let people know that up front, make it known that you aren't trying to appeal to everyone under the sun (god help you if you are), and see what happens. The results may surprise you.

[Auspice]

@Derp said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

I don't try, any more, to document every possible violation in some sort of legal codex because it's more trouble than it's worth and just invites people to try and lawyer.

The reason I recommend documenting is you don't want a situation where you warn J against a certain behavior, say if it happens again they're out... then have another Staffer come along, witness the behavior, and give a slap on the wrist. Because that can lead a player to think Staff isn't serious about warnings.

Does it need to be super detailed? Nah. But just a note to the rest of staff in an area future staffers can access (like a jobs board, a gdoc, w/e) of 'J has been warned not to creep-page. Ban on future offense.'

It protects, IMO, Staff AND players. Now, if you're gonna run a game solo forever? nbd. If you run it with someone (like I do with Paradox on SGM) that you trust and talk to regularly and have no plans to add extra staff? Again, nbd. But if you have it in your game that you might add more staff someday? It might be a good idea to plan for.

Additionally, because I feel like people are painting me as some naysayer trying to paint these guys as terrible: in one of my initial posts I pointed out that the concern was due to vague language and that it left the door open to some issues on all ends. Even you, Derp, are saying that you 'try to be clear about explicitly' what you're shooting for. That was all I was getting at and why I had a big concern over a very vague (in their initial policy writeup) 'we'll monitor RP on complaints.' Something more specific (I think a prev post by the staff said they won't monitor/observe TS for example) would assuage a lot of concerns on many peoples' parts.

[Derp]

@Auspice said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@Derp said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

I don't try, any more, to document every possible violation in some sort of legal codex because it's more trouble than it's worth and just invites people to try and lawyer.

The reason I recommend documenting is you don't want a situation where you warn J against a certain behavior, say if it happens again they're out... then have another Staffer come along, witness the behavior, and give a slap on the wrist. Because that can lead a player to think Staff isn't serious about warnings.

Does it need to be super detailed? Nah. But just a note to the rest of staff in an area future staffers can access (like a jobs board, a gdoc, w/e) of 'J has been warned not to creep-page. Ban on future offense.'

It protects, IMO, Staff AND players. Now, if you're gonna run a game solo forever? nbd. If you run it with someone (like I do with Paradox on SGM) that you trust and talk to regularly and have no plans to add extra staff? Again, nbd. But if you have it in your game that you might add more staff someday? It might be a good idea to plan for.

Additionally, because I feel like people are painting me as some naysayer trying to paint these guys as terrible: in one of my initial posts I pointed out that the concern was due to vague language and that it left the door open to some issues on all ends. Even you, Derp, are saying that you 'try to be clear about explicitly' what you're shooting for. That was all I was getting at and why I had a big concern over a very vague (in their initial policy writeup) 'we'll monitor RP on complaints.' Something more specific (I think a prev post by the staff said they won't monitor/observe TS for example) would assuage a lot of concerns on many peoples' parts.

I'm not saying that you're naysaying. I'm not even saying that you're wrong. It's just a different style, I think. One hard to describe.

Remind me tomorrow and I'll throw some more stuff in that Sample Policies thread out there somewhere and I will try to elaborate on what I mean when I say 'clear enough to get the idea across without necessarily going into a list of prima facie elements'. Just because I think it's easier.

FWIW, I do agree about documenting actions. Big fan of staff notes on player bits. Big fan.

[Auspice]

@Derp said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

FWIW, I do agree about documenting actions. Big fan of staff notes on player bits. Big fan.

That's good.
I think I misunderstood that line as saying you didn't think it was worth documenting violations and that's where I was like NO.

[surreality]

Yeah, I think documenting patterns of behavior is different than documenting 'we will observe during the hours of 3-6pm Tues-Fri if the wind is coming from the north'. That said, I do think an idea of what would trigger monitoring is a good idea.

Using the examples from before: 'We reserve the right to observe and monitor players in event of a complaint of stalking, harassment, or other serious infraction as determined by the staffcorps.' -- just to make clear it's not a 'well it's in policy and we just felt like it so you can't complain if we do it' sort of situation. There is definitely some middle ground here with means of allowing for unforeseen circumstances.

[Bad at Lurking]

Eh, I just assume that everything I type on the Internet is being monitored by somebody, somewhere, sometime, even if it is some poor bastard at a data collection center getting called in for a manual check of my communications because as a gamer, I talk about stuff that no doubt makes several NSA algorithms twitch.

If I were truly worried about staff watching me digitally bump and grind, I'd just make sure to make it a more uncomfortable experience for them, than me.

"Okay, in this sandbox sex scene, we're going to be Cthulhoid merfolk, working our way through the Cephalopod Sutra. But I'm going to narrate in the voice of Bob Ross. Annnd go!"

[Ominous]

@Bad-at-Lurking

[surreality]

@Bad-at-Lurking said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

"Okay, in this sandbox sex scene, we're going to be Cthulhoid merfolk, working our way through the Cephalopod Sutra. But I'm going to narrate in the voice of Bob Ross. Annnd go!"

...I kinda want to see this now, because it sounds like it could be hilarious.

[Ganymede]

@surreality

I’m in.

I want to be the predatory female.

[surreality]

@Ganymede I forget where I saw it now, but there was a hilarious post a few years back re: 'my wife wanted to RP being a mermaid and sailor in bed' and it all spooled out to be something something not 'sailor ravishes mermaid' but 'mermaid deposits eggs in a nest and... ' that comes to mind here, and dammit, I wish I knew where I'd found it now, because it was just as funny as you probably imagine. (It was a joke post, not an actual kink, so this is not random kink-shaming. If (generic) you wanna lay eggs somewhere as your fetish, you do you.)

[Ganymede]

@surreality

[faraday]

@surreality said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

The one issue I have with the suspect flag is that it's a double-edged sword.

That's quite true - SUSPECT is not a great tool because you only see half the conversation. Many comments are innocent enough out of context (though it can also work the other way around too).

I'm actually surprised that more MUs don't do what pretty much every public platform does: Log everything, and only review to verify a complaint.

If I report Bob for abuse on Discord or WoW or Gmail or Facebook (etc. etc.), they're going to check the thing I reported, decide whether Bob did something wrong, and act accordingly. They're not going to henceforth monitor all of Bob's conversations - tromping on the privacy of everyone he's chatting with - just to try to catch him in the act or see if he's also abusing someone else too shy to come forward. And I think we'd all be pretty pissed if they did.

The issue with most MUSHes is that a lot of stuff isn't logged to begin with, and client logs can be easily doctored. So instead of just being able to check a chat log and see: "Oh yeah, Bob was being a total creeper", everything devolves into they-said/they-said.

Ares' solution to this is to let people forward abusive conversations from within the game. That way there are no client logs involved, and reporting abuse is as easily as clicking a button (or typing a command).

There is some privacy cost to this, because more things are stored in the database than on a server like Penn/Tiny/Rhost. But the bottom line is that when you're communicating with a private server, every byte of data you send is able to be logged and/or monitored. You're entirely reliant on the game staff to be up-front about what they intend to do with that data, and then to follow through on their promises.

ETA: A lot of this thread should probably be moved to a separate one. It's not really Firefly specific.

[Ghost]

Trying to set policy that everyone loves is a moving target that you will never hit.

Set a policy that you feel is reasonable and stand by it.

[Apos]

@Otrere said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@Sunny

Thank you! This isn't the first time I've heard the suggestion to not take everything from this forum as gold, and I do take that to heart. I also appreciate your kind words!

Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about it, people just have strong feelings about privacy policies which makes for lively debate on here but it probably won't matter too much one way or the other in running a game. If you're having fun running the game and spend a lot of time and energy making the game fun to play on, people are going to play regardless of almost any policy for the most part. They can be useful to have and help set a tone for a game that can matter, but frankly most people won't read them.