Tips for not wearing out your welcome

[Sunny]

I don't think this conversation is particularly healthy for anyone involved.

[surreality]

@Sunny It does demonstrate in a nutshell why it's a bad idea to approach this community and games as therapy, though, good lawd.

[Prototart]

don’t think of it as wearing out your welcome just think of it as nerds not being cool enough to hang with you

[GreenFlashlight]

@Cupcake said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

Any time you are in any kind of conversation with someone where you feel like they are being negative toward you and you legitimately aren't sure, or your initial, instant reaction is to extract the worst from what they've said, stop and calmly explain that sometimes you have difficulty processing people's tone, and could they please clarify their intention? If they are in fact hostile they'll make no bones about telling you, but I can promise you, nine out of ten times? They're not.

I agree this is a good approach, so I'm not trying to contradict it, but I do think it's important to disclaim that no tip about communication is universally applicable (including the one I'm about to give), so it's a good idea to build a broad range of techniques to identify a person's meaning so you can check things against multiple tests. For example, my go-to when I can't understand someone is not to ask them what they mean, but to ask myself what I think their speech was intended to accomplish, and I have a lot of success with that... but it's much less useful in a gaming environment, where we're all a bunch of weirdos whose nerves are in overdrive dealing with stage fright and social anxiety, and half of us are just being weird for the sake of deliberately occluding a simultaneous desire to talk to people and a fear of being open with people. And really, even in real life, the "what are they trying to accomplish" advice is mostly useful when people are lying or being confrontational.

So yeah. Ask people what they mean, but have a couple of other tests you can run in case they're lying to you or misunderstanding you or whatever. It's mentally exhausting to have to scan everyone's statements like that, but oh well, that's the world we live in.

[surreality]

@GreenFlashlight said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

Ask people what they mean, but have a couple of other tests you can run in case they're lying to you or misunderstanding you or whatever.

Seconding this one, big time.

Also, it's worth pausing a moment -- if you think someone is lying to you -- to consider why they would do that.

Sometimes it's obvious: 'I don't want to get in trouble!' or 'I am just an asshole who likes being evil!' (Wow, do I wish the last one wasn't a reality we have to contend with in this hobby, but it actually is. )

Other times, they're saying something they firmly believe is true for whatever reason -- which may be the same 'assumed the worst and didn't check into it to see if it was really true' amazingly often -- but they're wrong. Someone may have lied to them to stir shit, or even passed along the wrong answer without ever intending to.

This happens to everyone. It's not something that just happens to people with communication difficulties or challenges reading people's tone. It may not happen as often, but it happens often. (Anybody who claims otherwise is deluding themselves.) These suggestions and tools are useful for everyone, and I hope more people consider them.

[tek]

Sharing another link to a PDF version of this damned workbook again. Seriously. It'll be great for... many people here, really.

https://www.academia.edu/42082942/The_Dialectical_Behavior_Therapy_Skills_Workbook_Practical_DBT_Exercises_for_Learning_Mindfulness_Interpersonal_Effectiveness_Emotion_Regulation_and_...A_New_Harbinger_Self-Help_Workbook

[Groth]

If you like me don't like google and facebook tracking cookies, you can find it on libgen here. Epub though so layout is slightly off.
https://libgen.lc/ads.php?md5=dc36f341efc47a0d2bb88ceeeb25dfda

[A. B.]

@surreality

Hey. Misunderstanding. Absolutely not trying to accuse you of bad intentions, quite the reverse, in fact. Re-reading my post, I hadn't spelt that out as much as I thought I had. Terribly careless of me. I was just saying that you were going about it tactlessly at times, which was a huge relief to me to realise. People were making it sound as if I was the only one making mistakes and provoking people without meaning to and nobody else ever would, and I was believing every word!

I know it was terribly cheeky of me to say it "out loud", but it was just such a relief to say it - made it seem real!

I'm sticking to it, you were making a mess of it! Less of one now, though. Much appreciated you telling me you don't mean any harm.

Trust me when I say you're reading the 'incendiary' into it. If I want to be incendiary, uh... yeah. I will call someone a goat-fucking braindead syphcock-gobbling shitmonster with all the mental capacity of a freshly-licked rock without skipping a beat, k thx.

X-DD
I'd much rather you'd said that than what you have been saying, actually. If you were openly hostile, then I wouldn't feel I had to believe you. It's when people give these impartial-sounding criticisms of everything they speculate that I did and thought and meant that I start to feel that I must be guilty of all those things if they say I am, including the bits that I know aren't - and, even if it isn't, that everyone else who reads it will believe it is.

[A. B.]

@Cupcake said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

What you just did there is leaving the pressure cooker on to explode.

Your pressure cooker's confusing me more and more. It started by making perfect sense, then you said "you should lift the lid and let others see what you're cooking, but bear in mind that others may not want to smell what you're cooking". Lift the lid or don't lift the lid? Or "lift the lid, while resigning yourself to the fact that it'll get you banned but you need to do it"? And now you seem to be saying that I'm keeping the lid on by admitting what I'm feeling, unless I've got your sentence completely the wrong way around.

stop and calmly explain that sometimes you have difficulty processing people's tone, and could they please clarify their intention?

In those exact words? Bit vague. On the other hand wouldn't want to risk hinting at what it is I'm worried they might mean, because that always leads to them calling that an accusation.

And I take it that by "calmly" you mean "pretending to be calm"? Because I can't switch on and off what I feel about a given thing. And frankly, I wouldn't want to, I've a right not to like being (as far as I can at that point tell) insulted, without being told to "calm down" it away whenever I don't like anything. The English language (probably other languages too, don't know) is a bit awkward in this way, it lumps together "feeling X" and "appearing to feel X", and "inspiring X emotional reaction" and "intended to inspire X emotional reaction" or even "pretending insincerely to intend to inspire X emotional reaction while knowing it'll do anything but". Oops, went off at a tangent.

[Ominous]

I am upgrading my Danger Will Robinson alert to:

[surreality]

@A-B said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

@Cupcake said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

stop and calmly explain that sometimes you have difficulty processing people's tone, and could they please clarify their intention?

In those exact words? Bit vague. On the other hand wouldn't want to risk hinting at what it is I'm worried they might mean, because that always leads to them calling that an accusation.

And I take it that by "calmly" you mean "pretending to be calm"? Because I can't switch on and off what I feel about a given thing. And frankly, I wouldn't want to, I've a right not to like being (as far as I can at that point tell) insulted, without being told to "calm down" it away whenever I don't like anything. The English language (probably other languages too, don't know) is a bit awkward in this way, it lumps together "feeling X" and "appearing to feel X", and "inspiring X emotional reaction" and "intended to inspire X emotional reaction" or even "pretending insincerely to intend to inspire X emotional reaction while knowing it'll do anything but". Oops, went off at a tangent.

Suggestion: Prepare a small statement to this effect. Keep it generic and simple. You can keep it in a sticky note, text file, even make it a macro to easily cut and paste or drop into a conversation whenever it is necessary.

Something like this is just fine: "I sometimes have trouble interpreting someone's intended tone, especially in a text medium. Can you explain or clarify what you mean when you say, '<put the quote you're uncertain about here>', or say it in a different way?"

This way, you can present calmly worded text -- and find out if you should be mad at all -- without having to steel yourself to word something in the moment.

That's it from me. I'm not even going to address anything in the post to me directly. I endeavor to be as clear and straightforward as possible, and avoid any innuendo or insinuation, when I am talking to someone I know may have trouble interpreting what I'm saying. It has not been successful thus far, so I'm done trying here.

[A. B.]

@surreality I know the feeling. Cheers!

@Ominous Why this now particularly, when I'm getting myself together and starting to get something useful out of some of what's being said? You seeing something that I'm not? Puzzled.

[TiredEwok]

@A-B said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

And I take it that by "calmly" you mean "pretending to be calm"?

Not to speak for @Cupcake, but in most social things, calmly means rationally and like an adult. You can still feel whatever way you feel about something or whatever, but calmly means you're not flying off the handle, exploding, going off and throwing tantrums, etc.

[Ominous]

@A-B said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

@Ominous Why this now particularly

For the same reason that @Sunny said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

I don't think this conversation is particularly healthy for anyone involved.

However, I try to do it in a humorous manner to lighten the mood/tension a bit.

@A-B said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

You seeing something that I'm not? Puzzled.

Yes.

I'm sticking to it, you were making a mess of it! Less of one now, though. Much appreciated you telling me you don't mean any harm.

This comes across as accusative language that directs the responsibility for one's feelings towards another person, rather than oneself.

Therefore, don't go taking anything I say here from now on, including this message, to be true or what I mean. Just think of it as the output of an amusing randomised chatbot.

This come across as an attempt to deflect one's responsibility for one's actions.

Will you look at that - it turns out I was right the first time to be hopping mad at being described as "choosing" to be frustrated and to think it was totally unfair, because the thing you did instead, I have no idea how to do, hence I couldn't really have done it. You're apparently ahead of me there. How can you "acknowledge or express your frustration in a healthy way"? That's what I thought I was doing by saying I was angry, and got monstered for it.

This comes across as a mocking tone used in a reply to someone attempting to help you.

Altogether this conveys the feeling that you are not having a discussion in good faith, and we are just spinning our wheels by continuing it.

I do these things myself when I get irate, and I have trouble knowing that I need to step away, take a deep breath, and approach the conversation at a later time in a better, calmer frame of mind.

Anyways, I am out. I wish you luck, @A-B

[tek]

Emotions can be controlled. Yes, one can choose to be frustrated. What you lack are emotional regulation skills.

It's okay. So did I for most of my life. They can be learned.

No one is expecting you to be perfect. They are expecting you to keep your shit together and not make your shit their problem.

If you are in a state where you are unable to keep your shit together, which happens to the best of us, you log the fuck off until you can.

[surreality]

@tek All the upvotes.

[GreenFlashlight]

@TiredEwok said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:

Not to speak for @Cupcake, but in most social things, calmly means rationally and like an adult. You can still feel whatever way you feel about something or whatever, but calmly means you're not flying off the handle, exploding, going off and throwing tantrums, etc.

To add to this, it is a good idea to learn the difference between feeling a thing and displaying a thing. How you feel only matters if you decide to make it matter. If you present yourself as being calm, then as far as the world is concerned, you were calm because they can't access your inner world to experience the upset you were feeling.

Masking is also mentally exhausting, but again, it's the world we live in.

[mietze]

I think sometimes that people who find it too hard to mask/behave calmly tend to assume that it is easy for other people and natural and costs them nothing to do, when in fact it is usually far from the case.

So then they are surprised when the people who have remained calm in the face of their tantrums and lashing out finally put a permanent end to their association, and interpret that as uniquely mean, not respecting their challenges, and awful to them personally, rather than realizing how much energy and thoughtfulness it took to try and remain calm in the face of that person's regular emotional blow ups.

And add that while people may be willing to shoulder more of dealing with someone flailing in their professional or family life, especially if they have to deal with that elsewhere, they may be especially disinterested in having to do it yet again "for fun."

[Tinuviel]

If I had a dollar for every time someone on a MU told me to calm down, when all I'm doing is actively disagreeing with them, I'd be a very rich man.

[mietze]

I work in a job where I get screamed at/unloaded at/have to deal with people who are in distress but express it as extreme anger, belittling, non-violent threatening, and insulting behavior. I often get difficult people directed to me at work because frankly I handle them really well, and as a result we can develop a relationship where I can help them usually.

My pay sucks, but the benefits are amazing, so I reserve my energy to do that.

But I only have so much energy. If people on a mush act like some of my clients do towards me, I will avoid them like the plague, report abusive behavior towards me, and choose to not interact with them again. Why, when clearly I am capable of listening and helping people process their emotions to the point that finally the task can be complete? Because mushing is not a job, and it is my outlet for fun, and that person is providing me with absolutely nothing but a sinking feeling and a headache. And usually there's no goal/transaction/task to work towards to resolve the situation.