Comparing and Contrasting the Clans of VTR2

Coin

They shouldn't. I can see how someone might take exception at what the command is, but if another player is considerate enough to ask (which they don't have to) all I'd be willing to do is discuss the extent of what it does. Saying 'no' is silly. Would/could they say 'no' to being IC punched in the face?

Entirely contextual. On some games, they may, in others, they may not. But it certainly isn't--and shouldn't be--an objective and universal rule of MUing.

Tempest

@Coin said:

I like having my character trick someone else's into something like a Blood Bond, for example,

Please tell me this involves a convoluted plan and Voivode, and not like...offering a cup of blood to people. Damn naive vampires.

Coin

@Tempest said:

@Coin said:

I like having my character trick someone else's into something like a Blood Bond, for example,

Please tell me this involves a convoluted plan and Voivode, and not like...offering a cup of blood to people. Damn naive vampires.

Now now, if I told you, what fun with that be later? Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

tragedyjones

If people find this useful, I can eventually attempt to get around to doing one for tribes, auspices, and covenants.

Tempest

I want to see the Auspice one, just for some lulz.

Werewolf would be a better sphere if someone just deleted the Rahu from existence.

tragedyjones

@Tempest said:

I want to see the Auspice one, just for some lulz.

Werewolf would be a better sphere if someone just deleted the Rahu from existence.

What's wrong with Rahu?

Tempest

They are far too facerolly, and WtF 2E gives you almost no real reason to make anything else. Rahu can be just as good at fetish making and rites as anybody else (especially with the book's dumb idea to let people roll whatever they want for rites).

I feel like the removal of Rahu completely would honestly help diversify the sphere, and in a very good way, not just for the hell of it. Using Reno's +census as an example, as of a week or two ago, it looked something like....15 Rahu, 5 Ithaeur, 5 Elodoth, 5 Cahalith, 10 Irraka. As many Rahu as /3 other Auspices combined/. Yeah, sure, look at like Vampire and there's usually a 'popular' clan, but I've never seen ratios like that.

Completely unrelated to the above thing, but slightly related to this thread/topic, I was bored and putzing around with the +census <trait> thing on Reno. Some amusing findings.

People with Nightmare 4+? -- 2.
People with Animalism 4+? -- 3
People with Majesty 4+? -- 4.
People with Dominate 4+? -- 5.
People with Obfuscate 4+? -- 5.
People with Auspex 4+? -- 6.
People with Celerity 4+? -- 6.
People with Resilience 4+? -- 13.
People with Protean 4+? -- 15.
People with Vigor 4+? -- 19.

Clan spread on Reno is pretty good right now, so that can't really be blamed on "there's a lot of XYZ".

tragedyjones

Rahu will never be as good at:

Sneaking, Spirit Manipulation, Social Fu and Inspiration as anyone else. They WILL be the best at killing things. That is their job.

tragedyjones

Doublepost:

Also, Rahu and Irraka are the easiest by far Auspices for a Werewolf noob to wrap their brain around, as they are the most straightforward.

ThatGuyThere

I was going to saw the same thing tragedy just did.
It was the same in OWoD too, full and New moons way outnumbered everything else. They are easy to play and can be played to the fullest with out relying on outside stuff.
Be a Ith, my personal favorite auspice, and you need someone either staff or a PrP runner to want to have spirit fu happening. as I have said before humans tend to take the path of least resistance so most plots tend to be on the punchy side of things, which is where Rahu shine, and second best thing in a fight is be too sneaky to be spotted and hurt so there we have the Irraka, The other three auspices require more work so will almost always be a lesser number. Lets not forget these are designed for table tops. In a table top you have a dedicated story teller who can balance things.

Derp

Well, a MU can balance things out too. If one thing over the other starts to get a bit too hefty, you can always incentivize people to make different stuff. It might not attract a huge flock of folks, but you'd at least get some. That way you don't have to outright prevent someone from playing what they want, but you can at least offer shinies to play something -else-.

That being said! Eldritch's Werewolf Numbers are much more balanced, both along Auspice and Tribe:

Rahu: 6
Irraka: 6
Cahalith: 6
Ithaeur: 5
Elodoth: 4

Blood Talon: 3
Bone Shadow: 5
Storm Lord: 4
Hunters in Darkness: 4
Iron Masters: 7
Ghost Wolves: 4 (Most of which is just due to everyone starting out as a Ghost Wolf at First Change)

lordbelh

@Tempest

The reason for the heavy reliance on physical disciplines on Reno is a simple consequences of it being a Sandbox game with zero political play. Sandbox games incentivise brute force because there are no other mechanics you're required to be good at, and in the end of the day any conflict resolution becomes a matter of who can throw around the most combat dice. Its the same reason why Reno has such a massive Rahu over representation. If you want more people to play social fu characters, schemers and plotters, then you need an environment in which they can thrive. Reno isn't that.

This is in stark contrast to say RfK, where social fu monsters were kings, and purely combat oriented characters mostly found themselves at the bottom of the pecking order.

mietze

As lordbelh says, you get in a sphere what is going on. How many active plots and RP that's available beyond small group clusters are there where non-combat roles are able to be truly active and contributing? How many PrPs/STs are running things beyond "You find a thing, now kill it, good adventurer?"

If the only thing going on is pure social (parties, relationship drama stuff, ect---and no, I do not denigrate those at all, it is a valid kind of thing to be going on and enjoyable too) and then whatever scenes a few sts can think to throw at people they don't know well or for their own small group, IME the default is "fight something". Also, combat skills/+sheets are fun for a lot of people because they represent something that others in general are not going to "I opt out, you potential rapist!" on.

What is the point of diversity? Are there actual things going on in the sphere where the absence of non-combat people is holding things back or detonating plot, ect? Or is it just a feel good +census? This isn't a snarky question (I know the latter is important to many people, and again, not knocking that want). But if you want people to take on roles and RP that isn't supported by other players or staff, then that's a losing battle.

Derp

Pretty much exactly what Mietze said. Players are going to buy the stats they're allowed to use to make a lasting change around them. If there is no force behind things like social dice, you won't see social characters. You'll see lots of physical characters because people can't opt out of a punch. While there are certainly two sides to the argument, I really wish that games would treat a character's stats as meaningful, even in regard to other characters. Then we'd see more diversity.

mietze

Or you will see them (most of my PCs are built around social) but they will be often be relegated to spectator only status unless they choose to make their own stuff or are willing to oocly do a lot of asking/muscling in. I don't think most people, especially those without a great deal of social capital (I consider myself has having had a lot of this on most of the games I've played the last few years--I tend to stay around awhile, in general I am well liked/thought of fondly, in general I have a good rep for sharing and interacting beyond just good friends, contributing OOCly, ect), relish the thought of that kind of uphill IC /and/ OOC battle for relevancy.

It is a hard thing to do sometimes, even if you do have the advantage listed above.

Werewolf in particular--I mean, yes, it's pack focused, but I'm starting to feel like it's also pretty staff intensive. If you're not a warrior, but instead are more dealing with spirit negotiation, or diplomacy, or other things--how often is that available to do off the cuff? Mediums often faced this too from a M/M+ standpoint. Even with the open STs, a lot of people are intimidated by ephemerals/ghosts/spirits, it's another level of complexity that a lot of people don't want to take on unless they're into it also.

Do I like that sort of shit? Yes. But I do totally understand and acknowledge that a lot of people don't want to deal with it. I think that's why you don't see too many people moving in those directions. They're too dependent on a minority category of RP that can often intimidate STs.

Ganymede

@mietze said:

Werewolf in particular--I mean, yes, it's pack focused, but I'm starting to feel like it's also pretty staff intensive. If you're not a warrior, but instead are more dealing with spirit negotiation, or diplomacy, or other things--how often is that available to do off the cuff?

It shouldn't be too difficult on Eldritch; that place has a pretty liberal policy when it comes to PrPs.

I've only been running combat situations recently because I was asked to run scenes where people can get Glory by smashing others. If someone wanted to do a fetish-creating scene or whatever, I don't think it would be difficult to get that done.

mietze

Yep, but I would say that probably anywhere there are far more people who are comfortable with an off the cuff hunt and combat scene than they would be for a spirit negotation one. For whatever reason, IME the ephemeral stuff seems to add another barrier. I didn't say it was impossible, just that if you are going to cap easy entry PCs (eliminating rahu or combat types) because you want to diversify your sphere and don't have a good chunk of available people comfy with running spirit negotation or fetish creating/gathering scenes, then that's not really going to help get an /active/ diverse sphere.

Coin

@mietze said:

Yep, but I would say that probably anywhere there are far more people who are comfortable with an off the cuff hunt and combat scene than they would be for a spirit negotation one. For whatever reason, IME the ephemeral stuff seems to add another barrier. I didn't say it was impossible, just that if you are going to cap easy entry PCs (eliminating rahu or combat types) because you want to diversify your sphere and don't have a good chunk of available people comfy with running spirit negotation or fetish creating/gathering scenes, then that's not really going to help get an /active/ diverse sphere.

I'm concentrating on a specific topic here:

I'm happy to talk anyone through ephemeral systems to make this easier. That said, I'm also of the opinion that if a system is making it harder for you, find a way around it that makes it easier.

The ephemeral Conditions, for instance, are meant to have plot based around them, not to have to be shoe-horned into plot, and this is counter-intuitive to how a lot of MU storytellers go about things.

For example:

A spirit of racism needs the Open Condition to possess a person--but what if the person is not racist at all? This is a problem if your plot depends on this otherwise non-racist person starting to act that way because of the spirit and having their friends and family slowly notice the change; or using it as a clue for the PCs to notice something is wrong (especially if you need it to happen quickly, not over a long period of time). So what do you do? You ignore that bit of the system. Fuck the Open Condition. That dude is Urged now and everything he would normally do comes tinged with a little bit of racist. Maybe he starts singing Avenue Q without enough sarcasm and spouting racist stereotypes.

If something is a barrier and ignoring it doesn't feel like a big deal, then it probably isn't. I'm not saying "ignore power limitations" or "grossly overpower them" or "make a spirit of X act out of character". But there are things a person can ignore, largely because what you want to do is still possible, it's just a matter of time or doing it a specific way that can be annoying to have to figure out off the cuff.

Ephemerals can be particularly complex because they have an entirely separate system regarding how they work, and it can be annoying. But it's not too complicated once you get it. One of the best things about spirits, IMO, is that spirits are hyperfocused. Basically, everything they do has to do with their nature. a spirit of fire wants fire, flames, burning, nownownow; it doesn't have complex emotions, motivations, and schemes. It is fire, and fire burns. Smart players will exploit that; smart storytellers will twist it in interesting ways.

I ramble. I would love to see more spirit negotiation stuff, and low-key possessions, urgings, etc., and am happy to help anyone who needs a quick tutorial regarding it. Even a Rank 1 or lower-tier Rank 2 Spirit can cause havoc for a werewolf pack in the hands of a smart storyteller, not to mention what they can do to people who aren't adept at handling spirits.

Edited to add that I would also love to see people taking initiative when it comes to spirits affecting their daily roleplay. Is your character an angry person? Have a spirit of rage or frustrating or violence Fetter itself to them; see where that goes. Do you spend all your time running around trying to bang as many people as possible? Lust, sex, and STD spirits galore; or maybe you find yourself fucking in a place where something horrific happened to a ghost that still haunts the area...

It's the world of darkness. As has been said before, that doesn't mean everyone has to be a dick; it means that the world is full of bad shit. It's really easy to make that bad shit part of your daily roleplay. And the scenes don't even have to conclude in anything other than "ah fuck ghost ghost ghost" and your PCs running out of there and never looking back. And if seven months later you want to revisit that chance scene? Maybe someone shows up dead in that place and you say, "fuck, it's time to bust this ghost" and you get into your firetruck and... you get the point.

ThatOneDude

@Derp

Well, a MU can balance things out too. If one thing over the other starts to get a bit too hefty, you can always incentivize people to make different stuff. It might not attract a huge flock of folks, but you'd at least get some. That way you don't have to outright prevent someone from playing what they want, but you can at least offer shinies to play something -else-.

Do the people actually play though? Or is that just the numbers?

Arkandel

@ThatOneDude said:

Do the people actually play though? Or is that just the numbers?

The same question can be asked about anything. The only answer is "hopefully".

You set the pieces, you offer support, you encourage plot... and then the ball's in the players' court. But players who aren't there certainly won't play, so you do want the numbers - they're a precondition for activity even if they don't guarantee it.