Dom/Sub imbalance on MUSHes
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Well, that is the other thing. Even removing any sort of sexytimes, I don't think there is any way at all to view the vampire-ghoul relationship (thematic as written in the source RPG) as "healthy". I don't believe you could have said that about werewolf and kinfolk/wolf blooded until 2.0.
So my objection is not that people are doing dominant/submissive "incorrectly" (I've been around long enough that snobbiness in that regard makes me laugh--even in the RL community, uh sorry, there are, have been, and always will be differing definitions and practices) so much as unless there's a lot of communication what someone sees when they read/place an ad or seek out rp is most of the time going to be a little off from the other person's idea and some negotiation is probably ideal. Maybe I'm jaded but it seems like that's a high bar of investment to clear these days.
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@icanbeyourmuse
Because it is empowering something negative that /does/ happen in real life. It can carry over to real life. When so many people attach so many emotions to their characters that they will behave irrationally IRL and in game concerning them it can be a gateway to making changes RL or open them up to predation RL such as @Sovereign has done.
Look, I'm not saying that anyone can't RP whatever the fuck they want. All I'm saying is that most people do not RP anything remotely like what D/s actually is in a healthy environment. The MU* version of D/s is a very negative and unhealthy stereotype and it offends me when it is done horribly because /there is never any consequence for it/ in games. It's just 'allowed' and swept under the rug.
By promoting such RP, people are essentially saying 'This is alright to play out.' and it cheapens and lessens what a healthy D/s relationship can be. It disturbs me how many people might (and actually /must/) think that is how D/s is, when it's actually not...
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@Lithium Murder also happens in real life. And theft. And assault. Does it offend you that people play characters who kill people and steal stuff? Is "Ocean's Eleven" creating a new generation of roguishly handsome thieves who would have been upstanding citizens if not for that dirty, dirty fictional depiction of glamorous criminality?
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So people not into something will project their own distaste onto the people that are? Including a "think of the dumb people/children you reprobates!"? Say it ain't so.
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From the far outside looking in, of someone that knows basically nothing about D/s and has basically zero interest in it, it seems very weirdly puritanical to be upset at people for, well, doing it wrong. Like, 'yeah, okay, do whatever you like, I won't judge you guys' and then have someone off to the side telling me that I actually should be judging them. Dunno about that.
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@Pyrephox said:
@Lithium Murder also happens in real life. And theft. And assault. Does it offend you that people play characters who kill people and steal stuff? Is "Ocean's Eleven" creating a new generation of roguishly handsome thieves who would have been upstanding citizens if not for that dirty, dirty fictional depiction of glamorous criminality?
For real. You're now going /that/ route?
I wonder how interested you'd be in rp'ing out a story where a band of violent homosexuals went around raping guys compared to women with strap ons raping guys. Do both happen RL? Sure, they have happened. Yet you don't see it happening as a means of 'fictional wank material' for the most part.
Somehow because it's the abuse of a woman that makes it 'ok' in your world, because it is just 'fantasy', which /never/ impacts reality (Hahahahaha!) at all.
Sure, someone can make a 'choice' to RP something out, someone could also make an uneducated choice, or an educated choice. Just because you don't like what I am saying doesn't make it any less true, no matter how many silly 'comparisons' you try to make (Also, yes, crimes have been done in imitation of movies and television shows, just so you know).
@mietze I love how you're trying to defend against this the same way @Sovereign defended himself. It's really telling.
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Also, and I realize this is difficult, but it's also important to realize it's gameplay.
I don't have concerns about players who pop out mush babies and then ignore them in a 6 hour unrelated plot scene or barely ever give them screen time afterwards--even though yes, there are some extremely ill people RL that do leave their toddlers/infants alone in an apartment for 12 hours at a time to go get their fix/try to deal with all the other stuff they are having to deal with in their lives. I've been a therapeutic foster parent. A lot of my emergency/short term placements were from those kinds of situations. I do not get palpitations based on mush behavior around it because thank god most people are normal and it's just where they are focusing their gameplay in the time they have to play rather than needing to uphold some kind of educational example of the appearance of the real impact of parenting on screen.
I don't get upset about other people playing out rape fantasies in private. I don't get upset about people RPing out abuse in private. If they are look at me assholes who shove it down unconsenting people's throats, that's different.
The depictions of things on a mush are rarely accurate, either the Dudley do-right perfect version or the total hot mess of epic it would never happen version.
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Yes, @Lithium. I am totally the female version of whatshisface. I think you need to take a minute to calm down.
Also, why are you assuming that the submissive is female? I've seen plenty of power play on mushes where it's the opposite. There are no gender assumptions for me in the power differential.
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@Lithium said:
@mietze I love how you're trying to defend against this the same way @Sovereign defended himself. It's really telling.
@mietze is defending peoples rights to engage in abusive IC relationships. @Sovereign is defending peoples rights to engage in abusive OOC relationships.
I'd like to think most of us are capable of separate the two, at least most of the time.
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@mietze Also, and it's important to realize this, but I know it's just a game and I am calm. I don't let MU*Soapbox upset me because it's just a forum where we all go to either rant, bitch, pat each other on the back, share, advertise, or occasionally ask for help and warn others of some bad game situations.
Your /defense/ of this type of behavior is the same defense Sov was using: It doesn't matter because it is just a game. It doesn't matter because people can make their own decisions. It doesn't matter because RL is different.
I am just calling out what a double standard is being shown right now, how it's the same defense, for essentially the same activity with the thin veneer of 'I like it therefor it is ok.' as compared to taking advantage of people who simply do not /know/ better.
All I am promoting is education, it'll actually make your rp /better/ and more engaging rather than wallowing in the lowest common denominator.
P.S. I am not assuming anything, I was using the terms @Pyrephox was using. I am well aware that D/s relationships and crimes occur with all genders.
P.P.S. Maybe you are the one who needs to calm down, you edited that post several times while I was trying to post this reply.
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Exactly. If you cannot respect IC/ooc boundaries then IMO you have absolutely /no/ business inflicting yourself on that kind of play on a mush.
I have learned that there is no one right way to process things on a mush. If someone enjoys playing a ghoul (which is probably the most canon example of an abusive relationship by default in every sense of the word), they may be processing RL abuse, they may be engaging in fantasy fulfillment if it's mostly sexual, they may like to see what you mentioned, Lithium, the unraveling/loss of what was once mortal and strong because the monster takes hold, they may have just superficially read stuff and thought oh cool I can be part of things without committing to a super template and I'd like to dip my toe in.
Or combinations of even more reasons and it may shift over time.
So what? It's their own private business, unless they choose to share it with you. It's easy enough to find a few nice people that share your views, the only thing that getting upset about others not doing it "right"does is burn you the fuck out and make you not very fun to play with even with those you're compatable with. Ask me how I know.
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I'm going on day 8 of no landline/regular internet, so editing will happen as I suck at phone typing. Sorry.
And again, I am defending RP subject. Not behavior. The fact that you draw no distinction is troubling to me, and I find you telling me I am defending abusive /behavior/ offensive, but we will have to agree to disagree about what a terrible person I must be.
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@Lithium You assume I haven't!
Okay, actually, I haven't. Fair cop. NPCing that many people at once can get kind of exhausting, especially making each one unique and arousing, despite the fact that they're largely doing the same mechanical thing. Although I suppose people who are into those sorts of gangbangs would expand various erogenous zones. Hmm. No, wait, I think I could do it. It'd require some ceiling ties, and I tend to lose track of limbs even when there are only two people involved, but it's a challenge I could rise to. Or maybe it'd be more fun not to involve bondage, and instead 'catch and release', with the victim periodically let loose to try and run, while the rest of the guys hunt him down, pounce on him, and have another go. That would at least give the victim player something fun to do other than moan and writhe and narrate the tightness of various orifices. Ideally, the victim would be a fine, strapping man, a swimmer-type, not a football player, and the perpetrators a range of body types and endowments, just to keep things a bit varied and interesting. The only problem with that many men is that some of them would probably have to be pretty hairy to keep the variety going, and I'm not big into bears. Oh well.
So, see, it wouldn't bother me. It's not my thing, but I've been reading fanfiction since I was in high school, and that was a long, long time ago. Gangs of guys raping guys for the sexual titillation of the ladies reading? That's /Tuesday/, man.
The issues I have with this kind of moral panic have nothing to do with thinking the abuse of women is awesome. Actually, quite the opposite. The issues I have are:
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It reduces women to passive recipients of information, who then have no choice but to act out whatever unhealthy influences they're exposed to - which, as a woman, I find insulting and infantilizing.
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It's just another way to take the responsibility for abuse from where it belongs (the abuser) and put it back on the abused (whether they're a man or a woman). The ONLY person responsible for abuse is the person committing the abuse. When we say, "Oh, this kind of crap encourages women to enter into/stay in abusive relationships," it's just another way of saying, "Oh, she could leave if she wanted to/knew enough to/was strong enough." Anything that takes the responsibility away from the abuser, and puts it on the abused, is bad. The reasons abused people stay in abusive relationships have nothing to do with the fiction they consume, and it's actively harmful to efforts at helping them escape those relationships and reduce the acceptability of abusing one's partner to imply that it does.
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It's another way to control women's sexuality, by shaming them for having "unacceptable" sexual fantasies. Oh, no, you're not just indulging in something you find hot, you're /reinforcing the patriarchy/. It's the toxic underside of "the personal is political", and I view it the same way I view people shaming women for wanting to be stay-at-home mothers.
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Generally, it's more about looking at an acceptable target to sneer at "girly" things (see also, the disdain for romances), while giving /just as stupid/ "guy" things a free pass. Because everyone loves to sneer at women, especially other women, and if they can sneer at them "for their own good", even better.
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@mietze It affects me and everyone else because it promotes an atmosphere where such a thing is not only accepted, it's /expected/. I have seen abusive ghoul relationships, and I have seen ghoul relationships that were anything but. It all depends on the players involved and the way they have decided to RP it out.
As a whole Gamers are /really good/ at throwing out what they don't care to believe in (Like for example it was written many times in oWoD that Vampires do /not/ have sex drives anymore (Unless one had a flaw) and couldn't even achieve anything resembling an orgasm without using the Kiss, yet vampire TS is pretty much ubiquitous to the point that when I RP'd a vampire without a sex drive, I was the odd one out.
The other point is that as anyone who has been around this environment for a long time what was once exciting becomes boring and mundane as we grow accustomed to certain things, we are on the look out for new ways to have fun, no themes, new settings, new stories, new RP partners, etc. The same thing can happen to sex lives and if we /start/ with the abusive unhealthy crap (Which I am not saying doesn't happen RL, I am saying it isn't /healthy/ from a psychological perspective (For most people, inasmuch as anything can be)) then where do we go from there.
@mietze said: And again, I am defending RP subject. Not behavior. The fact that you draw no distinction is troubling to me, and I find you telling me I am defending abusive /behavior/ offensive, but we will have to agree to disagree about what a terrible person I must be.
Yeah, because I made personal attacks and called you horrible... I guess... at some point I must have because it was written I did.
Here let me make this simple:
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I find D/s (as it is most commonly portrayed online) to be a far cry from what it can (and in my /opinion/) should be.
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RP is better when people are actually knowledgeable of what they are trying to RP.
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People become desensitized to things, and I'd rather they not just become 'accepting' of abusive relationships, IRL or otherwise.
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The defense you are using identical to the defense used by a 'villain' on these boards. That's all I was pointing out not saying you were a terrible person.
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I wasn't the one stating that your stance was 'laughable' and insulting you like you were to me.
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Get PDAnet, it's a program that'll allow you to use your phone as a wireless hotspot using regular data without having to get a wifi hotspot plan through your service provider. Been using it for years and years. Works great for mushing because it is not a high data transfer activity (for obvious reasons) and is reasonable for web surfing as well. You can also do a direct USB hook in as well using PDAnet if you do not have a wireless nic.
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Uh, the difference is that @Sovereign's victims were really, really, really not fucking okay with what he was doing. What you are talking about is consensual, and both people are very much okay with it.
some fucking idiot who people only like because he's good at taking credit for the work of everyone under him, just like every other fucking L&L headwiz.
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@Apos said:
Uh, the difference is that @Sovereign's victims were really, really, really not fucking okay with what he was doing. What you are talking about is consensual, and both people are very much okay with it.
Doesn't matter. @Lithium is just trying to get people to feel bad that they're being associated with someone who is awful, and hopefully create that association in the minds of the "audience" as well. Best thing to do is just ignore the attempt. Local community equivalent of Godwinning.
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@Apos Maybe they are, maybe they just don't know any better because they are not educated about the subject and are influenced by previous RP and other media.
I can't say for sure and nobody really can. If you know the difference and /still/ choose to RP in such a fashion, that's your thing. I only know about my experiences where that hasn't been the case, and I have been approached for all manner of abusive relationships that people on the other side literally had no inkling of anything else.
I'm just promoting education and stating my opinion on the subject.
@Pyrephox That's so cute.
EDIT: Either way, I apologize for the derail to the tangent subject. I still think it's as was said before by @Ganymede more a passivity than a 'submissive' thing, due to lazyness and an unwillingness to go out and create RP. Reacting instead of acting.
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@Lithium said:
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I find D/s (as it is most commonly portrayed online) to be a far cry from what it can (and in my /opinion/) should be.
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RP is better when people are actually knowledgeable of what they are trying to RP.
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People become desensitized to things, and I'd rather they not just become 'accepting' of abusive relationships, IRL or otherwise.
- The same can be said of every subject out there.
- The same can be said of every subject out there.
- The same can be said of every subject out there.
It seems like you have a lot of personal preferences about how other people conduct themselves consensually in private, which seems oddly controlling. There are lots of bad things that people RP. The WoD is built around that and it is hugely popular in MU*ing. You can't throw a stone without hitting a form of media that capitalizes on people/characters doing things that people shouldn't be doing. It just seems odd to me that you're taking such a hardline stance in this particular medium on this particular topic, which was a battle that was lost a long, long time ago. Especially when you started out speaking on this reasonably, like everyone else:
@Lithium said:
Which is fine I guess, not my cup of tea, but as long as they're not actually hurting anyone...
So how did things turn in one page to no longer being fine to the point that you're trying to dictate how and what people RP in their spare funtimes?
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@Warma-Sheen I am not trying to dictate how people RP. I have never said that they shouldn't do that, just that I would wish they would actually try to do something /beyond/ caustic and abusive with it. The double standard being thrown about is amusing me to no end however.
I'll have to buy a new bottle of rum now.
EDIT: And shit like this is why I wish more people were educated as to how it should be: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2966492/College-student-arrested-tying-whipping-raping-classmate-dorm-attempt-recreate-scene-50-Shades-Grey.html
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@Lithium http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/justice/wisconsin-girl-stabbed/
Oh, no! SLENDER MAN IS THE CAUSE OF MURDER! Clearly, all horror stories are evil and turn innocent children into crazed killers, and if you like horror, you are aiding and abetting murder!
