FS3 3rd Edition Feedback

[Arkandel]

@Jennkryst You and @Misadventure should get together and fight crime.

[Misadventure]

For great justice!

[bored]

@faraday

I've played many games based on your current system, since it's basically become the go-to for people who don't have a coder of their own (and that's not a bad thing at all; the system is a little generic but it's good it enables those games). Every character I made, it certainly felt like an issue, because every point I took out of a 'peak' skill (regardless of how high the admins set the limit for said peak skills, or what the line between twink and non-twink was for particular people), I knew was effectively oftten several months I was setting myself back.

The problem with your methodology isn't that it espouses 'it takes a long time to master something.' The problem is that what it -effectively- says is: 'If you play a master of something as your CG concept, you will end up well rounded. If you play a well roudned person as a concept, you'l probably never be as good as the Master, and they'll be just as well rounded if not moreso than you.'

You can retain your vision by adding geometric costs into CG. Absent that, its just bad design. Sorry.

[Jennkryst]

In short: A master (4) of skill 1 can become well-rounded (2) in skill 2... FAR faster than someone well rounded (2) in both skills can come close to equaling the master (4). God help you if you took four skills at 1, instead.

We could, but I like tricksy code, and I fear few agree with me on that. Alas.

[Misadventure]

To use OWoD as an example, in just the primary skills selection 13 dots (limited to 4s) could be:
3 X 4 dots (63 xp) + 1X 1 dot (3 xp) = 66 xp
13 X 1 Dot = 39 xp
6 X 2 dots (30 xp), 1 X 1 (3 xp) Dot = 33 xp

Throwing in the Attributes, the Merits, and a typical starting budget for Powers, characters could diverge by well over 100 xp. This is why cgen points that don't match XP from game play usually bite. It's a HUGE consideration.

OWoD does 3 2 4 6 8 10 xp for dots 1-5 in Abilities.

I would rather see templates, where they TELL something like you you get 1 4 dot skill, 2 3 dot skills, 6 2 dot skills, over the bad cgen points issue.

Yes, I did convert cgen to all XP for my Chronicle. Players had lots of XP, and felt free to get little 1 dot things to represent their character.

[Arkandel]

@Misadventure nWoD 1.0 has the same issue to a smaller extent. CG freebies buying, say, the power stat are a far more efficient way to raise it than with XP later on.

[bored]

Yeah, I feel as though explaining why this is a problem shouldn't be required, it's pretty obvious.

I suppose, worst comes to worse, this is something people can hack her code to do, but again, since most places that use FS3 do so because they don't have a real coder to begin with, I feel like we're going to get 'stuck' with the bad version alot.

@faraday You have a lot of modules and such, seem to support people doing their own thing, why not make this a toggle or something and let game-runners pick? It seems an odd point for you to 'stick' on, as philosophy or whatever, since you're not even the one running the games, you're just providing a tool for people to run games. And to avoid the 'asking someone giving you something for free to do more work to appease' you side of things, I'm sure any number of people here could code that modified version if you want, but if its not included with your stuff, people won't have access to it.

[faraday]

@bored If you start out as a master, it's because you have spent your entire life prior to chargen reaching that point. Most games portray only a short time window - a year, two at the most. Does someone really have a chance of "catching up" to the master in that timeframe?

I say no. That said, if you believe the answer should be 'yes', just adjust your XP awards and/or costs accordingly. They're configurable!

Why is this a sticking point for me? Because FS3 is about simple chargen. That is its core reason for being. As soon as you make chargen about point-per-level juggling, or age-based point rewards, or whatever, it becomes complicated.

Now I'm not saying any of those things are "bad design" or "bad ideas". They just don't fit the vision I have for FS3.

For me it's like saying "I like D20 but I don't want to use character classes or twenty-sided dice." Those are such hallmarks of the system that if you take them away, IMHO it's not really D20 any more.

[Jennkryst]

If it's about simple chargen, why are XP costs for anything even involved? Because it's not just about chargen.

[faraday]

@Jennkryst said:

If it's about simple chargen, why are XP costs for anything even involved? Because it's not just about chargen.

I meant that simple chargen was the core of the system. Obviously there are other parts of the system too, but chargen is IMHO the most important thing. Everybody goes through chargen, and it can be a big bottleneck for many games. Lots of people never spend their XP, 'cause they just don't care. Lots of people never get into combats. But chargen is the first stop.

[Arkandel]

Isn't the easiest way to simply remove all CG points of any kind and have one universal currency for everything? Uniform cost raises for all attributes and stats.

[bored]

@faraday You're still completely avoiding/missing/etc the point.

I'm not arguing that you need to make it easier to catch up with a master.

I'm arguing that the master, who spent, and I will quote you, their "entire prior life" doing this thing, should probably not end up as good at other things.

But they will. After 6 months playing, the master will have picked up all your rounded skills, and you will have gained only a fraction of their knowledge. Their character, in the long run, will simply be a superior human being who has accomplished more with their life.

As for simplicity, the difference between:

'You have 80 points to spend, things cost one, you hit a command and it tells you how many points you have left'

and

'You have 150 points to spend, things cost some increasing amount, you hit a command and it tells you how many points you have left.'

... is not that great. Yes, the second is more complicated, but the fact that you're hitting +raise X and its spamming back your remaining points really makes it idiot-proof, I'd say.

As for your vision, again, I find that strange that you're forcing a particular vision on people to access what you otherwise put forward as a generic system.

[Misadventure]

I think the simplest modification to the simple chargen in Faraday's system would be an after cgen XP modification.

You calculate the xp value of the character, and compare that to some template you decide is best (be that min-maxed for xp value, or some good but not too good set of stats) and you apply the difference to the new character. So min-maxed characters at best start with +0 xo, or they may start out owing xp.

This can be done by hand, with a simple set of instructions, or with a spreadsheet.

Or someone could write the final xp value module and allow it as an option.

Would it be hard to calculate the xp value of a character?

[Jennkryst]

@faraday said:

I'm mostly interested in feedback on the changes that were added in 3rd edition, or things that maybe you wish had been added but weren't.

Resounding chorus

XP is a problem

@faraday said (paraphrased):

It's not a bug, it's a feature!

Resounding chorus

We didn't say it was a bug. We said it was a problem. It is operating as intended. What is intended is a problem.

@faraday said (paraphrasing again):

Something about justification for choices, realism, et al.

Resounding chorus:

Realism is super boring and shitty. It's a reason people play games. Because games are neat, and let you do things in a non-real manner. You can totally become a master in a year or two, via the training montage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFrMLRQIT_k

Point is, you asked for feedback, and even asked for suggested changes. That you disagree with the feedback you're being given is not our problem. Also, realism is for scrubs. Insisting on realism in chargen and learning time will lead to the ammosexuals insisting on all guns having stats that reflect the real world, which leads to madness.

[Misadventure]

It would be a lot of work to convert cgen to XP.

That's why I suggested an add on at the end of the established process.

[faraday]

@Jennkryst I'm sorry if I came across too argumentative. I have a weakness for debate. I asked for feedback, which I got. Even if I don't agree with everything said, I nonetheless appreciate everyone taking the time to provide that feedback.

@bored said:

But they will. After 6 months playing, the master will have picked up all your rounded skills, and you will have gained only a fraction of their knowledge.

It's hard to argue without citing specific examples, but I haven't seen that phenomenon. But if true, I would suggest that's a case of the XP awards or costs needing to be adjusted, rather than a problem with chargen itself.

'You have 80 points to spend, things cost one, you hit a command and it tells you how many points you have left'

In 3rd edition it's more like: "Here are 20 points to spend and 10 skills to spend them on (unless you need an expertise or more than 4 hobbies). " It's WAY simpler, precisely because - as you said - the old version wasn't simple enough.

As for your vision, again, I find that strange that you're forcing a particular vision on people to access what you otherwise put forward as a generic system.

Flattering as it is, I think perhaps you have overestimated my altruism My intent was never to present FS3 as a "here's a system that'll do anything you want." It's more like "here's a system I created for myself based on what I like, feel free to use it."

To me, there is no perfect system. Character classes? Roll/keep vs single die systems? Linear chargen versus balanced cg/xp? Big skill list vs flexible background skills? Each of these things has pros and cons. Everything is a tradeoff.

[Misadventure]

@faraday creates a cgen/MU* for 7The Sea 2nd Edition?

Yay!

Hey now, I can hope.

[faraday]

@Misadventure said:

@faraday creates a cgen/MU* for 7The Sea 2nd Edition?

LOL. I actually enjoyed playing 7th sea back in the day.

Anyway, your point about giving some kind of XP bonus (or penalty) at the end of chargen strikes me as a reasonable compromise. It doesn't make chargen any more complicated, but could be enabled/disabled for those who care more about leveling the playing field.

[Misadventure]

Could it calculate the XP value of the character, as if everything had to be bought from 0?
(Or from 1 if there is no way to have a 0)

[faraday]

@Misadventure said:

Could it calculate the XP value of the character, if everything had to be bought from 0?

Sure. But giving folks a ton of XP right out of chargen would be a problem for the XP cap. The cap's in place to keep someone from raising a whole bunch of skills overnight.

Might be better to do as a multiplier. More XP value in chargen means you earn less each week. Or something like that.