Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux

Thenomain

@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@Autumn Yes they are nice, but they aren't inherently better than, say, a gun.

Explain to the police officer about your gun.

Now explain to them about how that person appeared to have spontaneously combust you have no idea. They find no GSM, no accelerants, what are they going to hold you on? The story of someone who's obviously crazy?

And then the Seers see the police report and make your life difficult.

Maybe the gun was better after all.

Ganymede

@Thenomain said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Maybe the gun was better after all.

Or fists.

As @tragedyjones said, everyone wants swordhands.

Thenomain

@Ganymede

Well duh, except that mysterious events centered around people gets attention from people you shouldn't want attention from, which I realized halfway through typing my response.

In the business world, this is what is known as "an opportunity".

In the GMing world, the opportunity is to mess with the characters.

HorrorHound

@Thenomain said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@Autumn Yes they are nice, but they aren't inherently better than, say, a gun.

Explain to the police officer about your gun.

Now explain to them about how that person appeared to have spontaneously combust you have no idea. They find no GSM, no accelerants, what are they going to hold you on? The story of someone who's obviously crazy?

And then the Seers see the police report and make your life difficult.

Maybe the gun was better after all.

Or the Hunters get to you.

Thenomain

@HorrorHound

I think the problem with mooshing too many game lines together is that there is an overwhelming number of antagonists. Throwing another entire class of antagonists at any game is going to distract from the main theme, if you have a main theme and Mage's theme is strong enough now that I think it would detract.

Misadventure

Make a setting based on the ascendancy of one antagonist group subsuming another, or several other antagonist groups. It can be by violence, by blood ties, by merging of philosophy, or even alliance between the powers behind the groups EG the Pure Ones get backed by the Geists, The Seers successfully manage a magic using vampiric state with the help of a vampiric faction and these new life eating immortal mages are ready to crush everyone. Whatever.

Warma Sheen

@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

You want to talk over-powered? Werewolves. All the way.

If you're talking direct combat, sure. But in other areas Werewolves are lacking. The good thing about CoD Mage is, they pushed them back to D&D status where they can be powerful in general, but squishy in combat. And to be at their best they need the right, rare components and a lot of time to prepare, preferably in a specialized room.

Now I don't know if every splat now has a particular area where they outshine the other splats, but combat is not the forte of the Mage, especially compared to Werewolves. Even combat focused Adamantine Arrows would have a tough go of trying to match Werewolves.

Thenomain

I'm just glad they made hanging spells much more costly, and everything, I mean everything feels streamlined.

Ganymede

@Warma-Sheen said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

If you're talking direct combat, sure. But in other areas Werewolves are lacking.

Do you mean "lacking" or "inferior"? Because when a fully-complemented werewolf pack is on the Hunt, it is almost unstoppable.

I've heard this said before, and I used to agree regarding 1E, but 2E Werewolves are naturally-built to destroy, which means that folks can dump points into other areas and still be an effective combat-beast. And if you're coming in with a pack, everyone's role is defined and their Gifts are narrowly-tailored but incredibly powerful. While Mages and Vampires can form Cabals and Coteries, they don't synergize as effectively as a Pack.

The real power/trick lies in the low XP cost for Facets. For example, for the Gift of Hunting, pair up Honed Senses (Cunning) and Impossible Spoor (Wisdom). The first reduces the exceptional success threshold to 3 for any Perception roll; the second gives you an additional 2 successes to any Tracking roll. With a reasonable score for both rolls or paired with the Trained Observer Merit, you can pretty much hunt down anyone, anywhere, any time. Your requirements: having 1 point of Cunning, 1 point of Wisdom, and 2 XP. 2 XP.

To "master" a Gift, you only need 11 XP for Affinity Gifts and 13 XP for Non-Affinity Gifts. And so long as your Werewolf spreads their Renown enough to pick up 1 in each (which only costs 9 XP to do, by the way), you can "master" every single Gift, excepting Moon Gifts. They did gimp Rites -- which I disliked in general because, yay, go ritemasters -- but they gave Gifts such a boost in the arm that I don't think anyone else gives a fuck.

So, yeah. I'm of the opinion that Werewolves are the new OP'd race. Then again, I'm pretty sure that werewolves were not calculated to mesh or interact with other races on a regular basis.

They would make neat antagonists, though, to keep other races in check.

Arkandel

@Ganymede One on one I'd take a combat-specialized Gangrel over a similarly specialized Werewolf any day. Aggravated damage is the great equalizer here.

In fact for that reason a clever Demon who can stay out of range and rain bullets will be pure hell on Uratha.

Ganymede

@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

In fact for that reason a clever Demon who can stay out of range and rain bullets will be pure hell on Uratha.

Until someone uses Unmake on the gun. Probably your Iron Master.

And, if that particular Werewolf isn't there, as long as that Werewolf has Reflected Facets, they can spend an extra Essence point to affect a target that one of his packmates senses. With Pack Awareness, you can sense when the attack hits, and act accordingly.

Cost: 2 XP for the Pack Gift Facets, and probably 2 XP for Unmake.

And while aggravated damage is awesome, so are Rahu. Big time. Not sure if I buy into your Gangrel-aggro theory, but we could put it to the test somewhere for shits and giggles.

Coin

@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

And while aggravated damage is awesome, so are Rahu. Big time. Not sure if I buy into your Gangrel-aggro theory, but we could put it to the test somewhere for shits and giggles.

The thing about aggravated damage is that it circumvents the werewolf's healing. But guess what: werewolves can do aggravated damage if they're biting for Essence--so it's really up to the storyteller whether or not they can do that with vampires (I'd say yes). Plus, werewolf bites are always Lethal even to vampires, and the vampire's Defense is not going to enjoy their Skill bonus, it'll just be lower of Wits/Dex, while the werewolf will have their full Defense...

It really comes down to the dice rolls, but werewolves are beassssssts.

Arkandel

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

It really comes down to the dice rolls, but werewolves are beassssssts.

Speaking of the dice rolls, Vampires have a great advantage in spending vitae to boost their rolls. That much aggravated damage upfront can end a fight before it begins; so if they get aggravated damage done to them that just means they need to hold back nothing for self-healing and front-load everything to take the bad dog down before they are taken down instead.

I think Vampire and Werewolf are actually very well balanced against each other, and I don't just mean it in combat. The equilibrium and specialities are pretty well done.

Ganymede

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

It really comes down to the dice rolls, but werewolves are beassssssts.

I'd hate to steal your (Love) gun, but they can also (in Gauru):

Gain 8-again on all Brawl and Weaponry rolls (Full Moon 1).
Gain extra health levels (Full Moon 2).
Boost attack rolls equal to Purity against targets that stand between the Rahu and his prey (Full Moon 3).
Inflict Tilts with every strike, regardless if the target takes damage (Full Moon 4).
Boost Strength or Stamina by 2 per success (or gain 1 pt. of armor or do an extra +1L in unarmed combat) (Full Moon 5).
Instantly avoid a Brawl or Weaponry strike as a reflexive action (Hit and Run).
Instantly learn of every creature within Purityx100 yards, which destroys any ambush (Lore of the Land).
Boost damage inflicted by Purity (Slaughterer).
Boost Strength equal to Purity (Primal Strength).
Penalize an opponent's attack pool equal to Purity (Grasp of the Howling Winds).

So, on top of all the goodies you can get via shifting to Gauru, you could potentially have any or all of these. And I'll wager the cost is substantially less than a combat-oriented vampire.

Plus, if the prey is the vampire, then the Werewolf can use his Hunter Aspect against him. Since we're taking about a Rahu, if the assault is successful, the Gangrel gets the Submissive Condition, which requires him to spend a Willpower point and succeed on a Resolve + Composure roll (and get successes equal to or more than the Rahu's Purity score) to launch an attack. While the condition is resolved if you take damage, one strike from a Rahu is usually good enough.

Yeah, my money's on the Rahu.

Edited to add: Hit-and-Run is the least-utilized, but best Facet for any Werewolf. As I said: insta-dodge melee attack. Can be used even if you've already taken an action. And can be used to set up a stealth-attack, depending on what your ST/Judge rules, should you use it to go behind your opponent.

Coin

@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

It really comes down to the dice rolls, but werewolves are beassssssts.

Speaking of the dice rolls, Vampires have a great advantage in spending vitae to boost their rolls. That much aggravated damage upfront can end a fight before it begins; so if they get aggravated damage done to them that just means they need to hold back nothing for self-healing and front-load everything to take the bad dog down before they are taken down instead.

I think Vampire and Werewolf are actually very well balanced against each other, and I don't just mean it in combat. The equilibrium and specialities are pretty well done.

Yes. And a vampire with maxed Vigor can do truly STAGGERING amounts of damage (and with a pretty good dicepool). But we're talking extremes, of course. Then again, if we are talking extremes, there are certain Rahu builds that can soak aggravated damage and dish out 8-again against lowered Defense with additional damage... I just--like I said: if you're going to go with EXTREME builds, then it's down to the dice rolls.

tragedyjones

@Ganymede Yes, a Rahu with Purity 5 will fuck most things up. But that is the apex of Rahu.

Coin

@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

It really comes down to the dice rolls, but werewolves are beassssssts.

I'd hate to steal your (Love) gun, but they can also (in Gauru):

Gain 8-again on all Brawl and Weaponry rolls (Full Moon 1).

Gain extra health levels (Full Moon 2).

Boost attack rolls equal to Purity against targets that stand between the Rahu and his prey (Full Moon 3).

Inflict Tilts with every strike, regardless if the target takes damage (Full Moon 4).

Boost Strength or Stamina by 2 per success (or gain 1 pt. of armor or do an extra +1L in unarmed combat) (Full Moon 5).

Instantly avoid a Brawl or Weaponry strike as a reflexive action (Hit and Run).

Instantly learn of every creature within Purityx100 yards, which destroys any ambush (Lore of the Land).

Boost damage inflicted by Purity (Slaughterer).

Boost Strength equal to Purity (Primal Strength).

Penalize an opponent's attack pool equal to Purity (Grasp of the Howling Winds).

So, on top of all the goodies you can get via shifting to Gauru, you could potentially have any or all of these. And I'll wager the cost is substantially less than a combat-oriented vampire.

Plus, if the prey is the vampire, then the Werewolf can use his Hunter Aspect against him. Since we're taking about a Rahu, if the assault is successful, the Gangrel gets the Submissive Condition, which requires him to spend a Willpower point and succeed on a Resolve + Composure roll (and get successes equal to or more than the Rahu's Purity score) to launch an attack. While the condition is resolved if you take damage, one strike from a Rahu is usually good enough.

Yeah, my money's on the Rahu.

I honestly haven't done the math because it never interested me, but I'm sure a Gangrel with Protean, Celerity, Vigor, Resilience, and Coil of the Wyrm would put up a reasonable fight. I mean, just with Protean, Vigor and Coil of the Wyrm alone, you're looking at a bonus of +Vigor to dice pool, +Blood Potency to dicepool, and +Vigor to sucesses if hit, all doing aggravated damage.

Like I said above: I'm rarely interested in extremes, but in the end, I do believe it's the dice rolls that determine it.

Especially that one dice roll: Initiative. And yes, both splats have ways to interrupt, so.

tragedyjones

My Mekhet with strength 2 on Eldritch was built to be able to kill a Werewolf. Not originally, but eventually he ran afoul of them and was able to acquire some silver bullets, and get Marksmanship and Quicken Sight. Celerity, reflexive aim, shoot, and then run tf away. Obfuscate is the ultimate murder tool, after all.

Ganymede

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

I honestly haven't done the math because it never interested me, but I'm sure a Gangrel with Protean, Celerity, Vigor, Resilience, and Coil of the Wyrm would put up a reasonable fight. I mean, just with Protean, Vigor and Coil of the Wyrm alone, you're looking at a bonus of +Vigor to dice pool, +Blood Potency to dicepool, and +Vigor to sucesses if hit, all doing aggravated damage.

I think it comes down to the math regarding XP, rather than the pools of dice. But, yeah, it'd be a fun thing to watch.

Coin

@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

I honestly haven't done the math because it never interested me, but I'm sure a Gangrel with Protean, Celerity, Vigor, Resilience, and Coil of the Wyrm would put up a reasonable fight. I mean, just with Protean, Vigor and Coil of the Wyrm alone, you're looking at a bonus of +Vigor to dice pool, +Blood Potency to dicepool, and +Vigor to sucesses if hit, all doing aggravated damage.

I think it comes down to the math regarding XP, rather than the pools of dice. But, yeah, it'd be a fun thing to watch.

That, and dice rolls. I stress "dice rolls" because I have seen a ten-dice roll explode into twenty sucesses and I have seen a 30-dice roll wither and die at 3 sucesses.

Probability is a hell of a fucking bitch.

Also, I think the XP thing is also determined mostly regarding who you decide sets the original cap. If you "build a vampire and then build a werewolf based on the XP the vampire spent", or vice versa.

Or whether or not you give a lot of XP to both, or not a lot. At 100 XP, I think it's anyone's game; at 50, it's probably closer to the werewolf. But at 30, I'm kind of eying the Gangrel with respect.