Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.

[Groth]

Maybe it would be better if the barely twitch legal sex appeal streams had their own category just like gaming talk shows and speed-running rather then bloat up the stream lists of individual games?

[Insomnia]

Yes. Eleventy billion times yes.

[Sunny]

@Insomnia

Their work isn't gaming, though. It's sex with a gaming backdrop. At least in my opinion. They still work hard -- those bodies, hair, and makeup do not take care of themselves.

[Insomnia]

@Sunny Right, but that's my point. They claim it is gaming and makes it that much more difficult on the women who do game and keep our boobs out of sight.

[mietze]

Forgive my denseness, but I thought the work of twitch was entertainment, not "gaming". There are game developers that do the work of putting together games. There are writers that review (but they're most often working for a media resource), and then you have the demonstrators (which is what seems to me what YouTube and twitch are). Sexiness has been part of gaming development forever. Booth babes are a thing (Microsoft even had paid ones that yeah, were hired for their assets).

So, bikini babes are doing the same work as anyone else trying to draw an audience. Why begrudge them? Who they attract as loyal followers aren't likely to dovetail much with people who want to see more serious work through of the game. They're like booth babes. Who I think probably are underpaid for having to deal with what they do).

And still. They are not what makes a tool say "tits or gtfo". But you can use them as a tool when you say, sorry...I think my stream isn't what you are looking for. Have you tried X, y, or z? Bet you'll find what you are looking for over there."

In short, I think they are doing the same work, in a different style. You or I might find it distasteful or stupid, but oh well.

[Ganymede]

@Sunny said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

On one hand, tits for a mount fucking drives me nuts.

It drives me nuts too.

Isn't it just easier and less time-consuming to spend $20 at the local titty bar? And then, they are right there.

[surreality]

@mietze said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

They are not what makes a tool say "tits or gtfo".

Hell, we had Rick Sanchez and his crew of dipshits doing this on this board with some regularity, and that isn't even remotely like any modeled behavior here. Some people are just... well, useless. Until their bodies can be donated to medical science.

[mietze]

In disclosure, my husband has been a developer in the gaming industry for almost 20 years now. Right now he doesn't go to exhibitions much, but he used to. Because of his work and the area we live in, I know people in all facets of the industry (from one of the hiring staff at Microsoft who hired their booth babes for E3 like 15 years ago, to people who do various console games, app games, art people, writers, ect.) I don't think anyone I know would say with a straight face that sexy stuff isn't used at pretty much all levels of game development and marketing. (Maybe the old fashioned strategy games, but it's not like they don't also go to various exhibitions where the big games that do use that to draw in people and ride the coattails a bit).

But all of that being said--if someone cannot tell the difference between a writer/exhibitor who is including NO sexy winking at all in their work, and gets angry when it isn't there, or otherwise behaves like a pig...then that is a major issue with that person (and yes with the culture, which would be still having to work through this even if all women from writers/programers/artists/demonstrators wore burquas.) It is NOT the fault of the booth babes/bikini streamers. I think disdain for them is a problem, and a way to shunt off responsibility from the people who are the ones behaving inappropriately.

[Sunny]

Yes. Exactly. The booth babes are not the problem. They work hard, too, and deserve to be respected, even though my own personal preference means most of them annoy the shit out of me.

Mostly because they tend to remind me of my sister, and fuck that bitch.

[Arkandel]

I shudder to think what these women are dealing with at these game/technical conventions filled with tired, stressed, male nerds with suspect social skills to begin with.

[Insomnia]

@mietze Yeah, doing a Let's Play or streaming is not being a demonstrator. I'm mean sure, if you just have a mic and record something and put it up. But there is actually a lot more work that goes into it if you are trying to make a living out of it. Photoshop, video recording, sound editing, posting on multiple social media places to get the word out there about the video is seen because you are likely hoping to get ad revenue from your views, and most people use adblock nowadays so they don't even see the ad from your video. Or maybe you have a Patreon and you want to keep putting out extra content for the people who pay for it.

Putting up a video a day is absolutely work. Especially if you do any sort of editing. A 20 min video might have an hour and a half of gameplay you have to go through.

Eports is an actual thing too. People on professional teams, managers, all gaming.

Twitch is all about gaming. When you go to the front page it lists Featured games people are playing and see all live games. You don't even see links to the newer stuff until you sign in. Twitch lists things as games being played. If I like WoW, I'm going to look at WoW streams. If I like the personality of the person playing, I'll probably watch them more.

It may be entertaining sure, to see a woman in a bikini smooshing her boobs together in front some random game. Yeah they are doing the work to draw the audience. But the audience they are going for is not what it is geared too. They are not the only reason guys say "tits or gtfo' but they are a big contributor of it. I have no issue with sex and sexuality. What I have an issue with is the sex as a gaming backdrop in the gaming culture. It has nothing to do with booth babes, or women in bikinis in the game, that's not the issue.

Lumping bikini streamers in with booth babes is the problem. Sure, both women get paid to stand around looking sexy in from of the game. But one of them is paid to do it, the other uses the game to get people to watch them stand around. So yeah, if a guy is going to get upset that mytits aren't out because they expect it because that other streamer did it? I'm going to absolutely put the fault on the bikini babe. She the guy is an asshole, but if she didn't falsely advertise what her content is, he wouldn't have thought that. The problem is they are listed as playing a game when they are standing in front of a screen of game being played, usually with no commentary about the game.

So a guy goes to that channel and see's it's okay, and then the next time he encounters a woman in game it's okay to make sexual comments to her, uninvited, because some woman did it? That's what my issue is. These women are not booth babes, paid by the devs to promote the game they are women who use the popularity of the game to promote their boobs. That's the problem because people are dumb and think it's okay with every woman, and it's not. You can't tell me bikini streamers can't be blamed when I have had it said to me more than once "Well I was watching this game the other night and another woman was playing and she was half naked, why can't you?" which for me is far creepier than asking if I'm dating a guy because I recorded a video with him.

[Sunny]

She didn't ask you to show her your tits. He did.

[Roz]

No, one woman being sexually harassed is not another woman's fault just because she was using her sexuality to make money.

[Sunny]

@Roz said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

No, one woman being sexually harassed is not another woman's fault just because she was using her sexuality to make money.

It needs to be repeated.

[Roz]

@Sunny said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

@Roz said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

No, one woman being sexually harassed is not another woman's fault just because she was using her sexuality to make money.

It needs to be repeated.

NO, ONE WOMAN BEING SEXUALLY HARASSED IS NOT ANOTHER WOMAN'S FAULT JUST BECAUSE SHE WAS USING HER SEXUALITY TO MAKE MONEY.

Honestly, @Insomnia, you can say that you have no problem with sex or sexuality, but all of your words on this topic have seriously grossed me out with the level of misogyny in them.

[mietze]

I did not say entertainment or demo was not work. I'm not sure why you seem to look down on demonstrators, they're vital to the industry and frankly they are often under appreciated because if they are doing their job correctly it looks effortless.

I am saying though that their work is still work. Different than yours. If you want to get the sexy streamer audience then you need to do the work to get there. Pretty sure most cam work people would say there's more involved than what it seems regardless of content. If someone who does sexy streaming wants to do the sort of work you do then they will need to adjust and do the work to get there too.

If your platform is allowing off topic things, that's something to address with your platform. It is not the fault of the other users.

[Insomnia]

I don't have a problem with sex and sexualtiy. I have problem someone advertising a burger, and then when you get to get the burger someone says "Surprise! Here's a salad instead!". So they go to the next place advertising a burger and demand a salad because that's what they got at the last burger place because the more they see salads the more they come to expect salads from burger places, not burgers. I wouldn't have any issue with it if there was a place for them to provide salad at a place that advertised salad.

Or hey, back to the original article: If a woman in VR gets groped without invitation and encourages it and doesn't speak up, then yes, she is partially responsible for the next woman who's avatar who gets groped uninvited because she she is contributing to the problem. She is doing nothing to fix it she is encouraging it. Yes most of the blame is on the man who thinks it is okay. But the woman who doesn't say it's not okay is by no means blameless.

I guess I'm a misogynist then? I've been on the "Why not, other person did" end of things far too often to otherwise. I'm not being sexually harassed because I'm a girl, I'm being sexually harassed because another woman is encouraging the behavior by using her sexuality. How is that not a problem?

[mietze]

You are being sexually harassed by someone who uses the fact that his tactics were successful on another person. You only know that they SAY "oh she didn't say anything." For all you know he's been told hundreds of times and chooses not to hear. But no, the other woman is not responsible for his actions. Men are not uncontrollable animals incapable of self control. And predators will be predators.

Ugh. This just makes me feel ill. Yes people need to speak up always. No, even when they do it sometimes is brushed off or has no impact. But the responsively for the action is ALWAYS on the actor.

[Sunny]

@Insomnia

I am...wow. Just wow.

No. No, no, no. You are wrong, and the viewpoint you are spouting is wrong, and you should feel bad. I am not joking or being playful here: I hope you feel bad for saying these awful things about somebody.

Just because I get a salad at a burger place does not mean I get to be mad at the next burger place for not having them.

Just because I personally encourage someone to touch me has NO BEARING on that person touching someone else, welcome or otherwise.

The problem is with 'why not, other person did', not 'other person'. Do you blame sex workers for people being raped, too?

[Misadventure]

Way to win hearts and minds there Sunny.