Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede said in Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info:

I hope you don't think I'm being personally critical of you; I'm not. I'm just lamenting what I see as very lazy game design.

I won't argue the point that it's lazy, only that it's necessary.

White Wolf's niche and intended audience is pretty specific; placing a crucial part of the metaplot in the Middle East covers their 'overseas warzone' demographic in a way most people buying their books would understand even if they know very little about what's actually happening in those parts of the world or, for that matter, whether they could point them out on a map or not. Most wouldn't know anything about what's happening in China though, and that's without even getting into the potential controversy of saying (or even implying) something negative about the country's government even cloaked in the most supernatural lore versus making similar allegations about say, Syria.

They're trying to be respectful (which is why they didn't develop KotE in-house after all) which might mean many things. I wouldn't be shocked if the financial impact of doing so crossed their mind as well.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info:

They're trying to be respectful (which is why they didn't develop KotE in-house after all) which might mean many things. I wouldn't be shocked if the financial impact of doing so crossed their mind as well.

That KotE wasn't developed in-house meant little to me. The entire Year of the Lotus crap was ... well, crap. That it probably sank their operation doesn't make me sympathetic.

I'm not going to lie: when I started playing V:tM, I looked up a lot of what seemed to be White Wolf's inspiration. And, for me, that was the interesting part of it: discussing "Alamut" and its place in Christian mythology is an interesting exercise. But, here's the thing: I was uneducated about a topic, learned about it, and became educated (or at least conversant). That's part of the fun about gameplay, I guess. For me, at least.

So, we're going back to the Middle East, a place that was probably chosen less for its location as the oft-presumed "cradle of civilization" and more "because this is where we started" or "their governments are less likely to be offended by some game company making up shit about their past culture." That makes sense to me.

But, as you point out: it's lazy. Which is what makes it, for me, uninteresting and boring.

And to suggest that White Wolf has tried to be respectful is almost laughable after the shit-show that was the Year of the Lotus. Or the Nunnehi. Or the Tzimisce. But I give it a pass because it's a game.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel said in Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info:
replenish it with nearly no chance of failure or consequences - and Hunger could make it way more relevant.

that all depends on how it is implemented. Blood pool tended not to mean much on places where a simple +gain command could be filled up. Unless you track how people +remove hunger or whatever the command it it will not become any more important because the net result is still running one command after a scene to return to base state.

[Bobotron]

@ThatGuyThere
I think the big thing with Hunger on a MU* is, it's less HOW you refill (though there's detail on it, especially with having to KILL someone to get to 0 Hunger), and how Hunger interacts with everything else.

If I gain a Hunger die during play and that puts me at 2 Hunger Die, that's 2 chances to flip out and have to deal with a Compulsion. It gives a different feel to the scene where you might be concerned about blood; instead, you' re now concerned about not only flipping out due to Frenzy triggers if they come up but also the raw compulsions like 'get ranty about your control of the situation' and such things. It's like the damn Snickers commercial almost, to an extent.

Plus with the 'passive bonus' from who you feed on, that's impetus for a rejiggered gaining blood command. I could see it opening a job, doing all the 'you get blood' work, and then staff adjudicating any 'after the fact' things. Like if you purposely killed a dude. You have only three or four options for feeding, so it's not like you're going 'I take 3 points safely.' It's 'I drink from and not kill a human, remove 3 Hunger, and gain a +1 to my Seduction pool 'cause I ate a hooker'

Perhaps a bit more minutiae for a many-sphere game, but I find it could be a good flavor thing on a one-sphere game.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Bobotron
I understand the potential for use but on a MUSH like everything else it comes down to how much of a focus staff and scene runners will actually place on using said mechanics, especially since most WoD games these days to be primarily PRP runners who storytell most of the plot activity it will likely vary widely even on plots on the same game how much Hunger will effect play in plots.

[Bobotron]

@ThatGuyThere
This is very true. It requires a buy-in from staff to adjudicate it. Which is why I feel like it'd be better for a single-sphere game than a multi-sphere game.

[Thenomain]

@Bobotron said in Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info:

@ThatGuyThere
This is very true. It requires a buy-in from staff to adjudicate it. Which is why I feel like it'd be better for a single-sphere game than a multi-sphere game.

I'd be interested to see these other splats and how they handle it. Mainly Mage, which is my favorite oWoD game, more in spite of the magic spheres system it uses. (Sorry, <name of other splat here> fans.)

[Bobotron]

@Thenomain
They said Ascension is third in the list. Someone elsewhere mentioned something about how the core mechanic is similar to Paradox dice and quintessence?

[Thenomain]

@Bobotron

It sounds like it, tho the response was to whether or not the games will mesh. The metaplot has them in the same world, so I hope they are designing the splats to work together.

The secondary comment was how I probably am only interested in Mage, without the presumption that anyone cares which of the oWoD games I want to re-play the most. (Note: Mage.)

I will say in a Ganymede manner that the dropped hints about the Technocracy's involvement in the Vampire setting also sound mega-lame. Why do I think Vampires have no luck with technology? ... Wait, they have no luck with technology? When did that ever happen?

Still, I have no problem returning to an established world a long time later and have someone come in and make changes with "oh yeah, it was always like that". But making Vampires have problems with technology doesn't sound the least bit interesting, but we'll see if they can make it happen.

--

• (note: I don't know if it was "vampires have no luck with technology" or other verb, but you get the idea. corrections about the exact phrasing here will be mocked.)

[Bobotron]

@Thenomain
LOL. I get you. They stated that they want them all to work out mechanically together, even if they aren't balanced, so likely they'll all run on the same 'base' mechanic with better integration than regular OWoD has. I'm cautiously optimistic at the moment. A lot of the concerns I had about 'you are what you eat' and such things have been alleviated.

(Also, I like Ascension more than I like Awakening. There, I said it, I'm a pariah in the community now.)

[Thenomain]

You know, I know this wasn't the intent of this post, which is very informative and thank you one million times for this, @Bobotron, but the more I think of seeing the name "Mark Rein-Hagen" and how people left even Onyx Path over the hiring of Zak at White Wolf, I'm not sure I can be excited for this. Every time I see WW doing something interesting, I also see a company playing at being Uber: Generate a lot of hype but behind the scenes may be very questionable.

I'm making this decision very early, but I don't have good feels over it. I hope I'm wrong.

[Bobotron]

@Thenomain
Its okay, Theno. I was putting it up here 'cause I know there are people who like WW, and there's a lot there to go through even with it being pre-alpha.

I like the mechanical stuff that's going on. I'm ambivalent about the setting changes until I know more. The rest I am going to refrain from commenting on. I like Ken Hite's stuff and him being involved is enough for me to watch with cautious optimism.

[Arkandel]

@Thenomain said in Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info:

but the more I think of seeing the name "Mark Rein-Hagen" and how people left even Onyx Path over the hiring of Zak at White Wolf, I'm not sure I can be excited for this.

For those of us not keeping up with the Joneses, can you explain this? The names mean nothing to me.

[Thenomain]

@Arkandel said in Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info:

@Thenomain said in Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info:

but the more I think of seeing the name "Mark Rein-Hagen" and how people left even Onyx Path over the hiring of Zak at White Wolf, I'm not sure I can be excited for this.

For those of us not keeping up with the Joneses, can you explain this? The names mean nothing to me.

Mark Rein-Hagen (actually, the dash is the bullet-point dot, and sometimes he got snippy about this) was the co-owner of White Wolf Game Studios and creator of Vampire: The Masquerade. He's the reason for some of the more faux-edgy decisions in Werewolf, the god-awful Bunk Cards in Changeling, and the schitzophrenic magic system in Mage. Also, see above re: him getting snippy about people not putting the bullet in his name. That was pretty typical of 1990s Mark. Maybe he's changed. Dunno.

I don't see any evidence on his Wikipedia page that he's working for White Wolf. Still, seeing his name associated with White Wolf makes me cautiously pessimistic.

[Bobotron]

@Thenomain
He was there hanging out, participating in a LARP and showing off a new card/board game for Masquerade he developed for WW called Conclave, from what I saw third-hand.

@Arkandel
Kenneth Hite is a good writer; he used to write stuff for WW in the day (Cainite Heresy) and he wrote the excellent Night's Black Agents game.

The OTHER name in the controversy, Zak Smith, is a very controversial figure who has been accused of harassment in various forms, evidence both for and against (and evidence of him being counter-harassed), and is kind of a troll. He is also apparently a good writer, having a few things published and a D&D thing he wrote won multiple ENnies (I haven't read his stuff, so I can't verify this). There's a lot of controversy with the guy and, while I don't like his writing style (I find it to be edgy for the sake of edgy), I don't believe he's working on V5 in any capacity though. A writer in OPP's stable, David Hill, quit because WW hired him to write the vampire mobile game (Hill has a history of beef with Zak S. and has accused his 'followers' of taking pictures of his kids' school and issuing threats that as far as I can tell, never got presented to the police, before Hill expated to Japan).

So make of that what you want. A lot of people are screaming to boycott WW because of Zak S. and stating that they are 'condoning harassment'.

I feel like I'll be bitched off the forum for saying this, but I have no opinion on that aspect of it. Until I know that Zak S. is definitively involved in the development of V5, I'm going to continue with cautious optimism, 'cause I like what Ken has written and like what has been revealed so far.

[Bobotron]

Also, more about Disciplines and Hunger.

On Disciplines...
Yes, disciplines are totally still a thing.
Including different level of disciplines.
Like for example you still got dominate with command, hypnosis and mesmerize. Which each got their description of what they do. Every application of your discipline, whether it is dominate or celerity, does rouse your blood a bit and thus is likely to increase your hunger after the scene concluded.

In regards of celerity the description of the various levels did change somewhat.
Like you don't get a +1 extra action anymore but like (significant) imitative boosts and stuff on the line of that.

Various clans do as well get various disciplines to start with.
Like I believe none of the Ventrue got e.g. Auspex.

If you obtain a discipline by feeding (my Ventrue got a dot of celerity after taking from a young guy on speed or similar) the effect will fade after an application. You can only have one feeding effect available at a time. Like if I got the celerity blood lingering, eating from the presence DJ wouldn't help the character on top.

I wonder if the guy is mixing up what was prior stated about, say, +1 stealth from a homeless dude.

On Hunger...
As a note if you manage to rouse blood to five before the scene concludes you will roll for hunger before the scenes end.
Like discipline happy Brujah rouses his blood by,...
throwing Presence 1, throwing Presence 2, pushing 3 attributes
-> immediate roll
The same scene, the fight begings,..
throwing Potence 1, throwing Celerity 1, pushing 2 attributes, throwing celerity 2
-> immediate roll
Healing 3 health levels after the fight
-> the scene concludes and the three rousal dice will be checked whether or not they increase hunger

So you check for hunger (which increases the hunger dice) essentially every 5 times you rouse/spend blood. Not a terrible mechanic and could be easily automated.

[Bobotron]

More general info (sorry @Thenomain no mage info yet) from they keynote speech

• Wants to build as the 'biggest transmedia brand', with a consistent story and aspects across aspects of media
• Wants it to be a participatory entertainment
• MET Changeling the Dreaming re-interated
• They have partners in place for the WoD TV series, with a target of 2020
• Talked about being at Gencon and PDX with previews/playtests of V5 (obviously starting next year)
• No specific time for V5 playtest rules, just 'soon'
• worldofdarkness.com will become a community portal for all methods of the game, but will start with LARP focus (something that was previewed separately was a LARP game tracker with character creation, which is part of this)
• Storytellers Vault will be the first user-created content section, starting with Masquerade. It'll have spots to publish fiction, supplements, etc. along with templates for use so that fan material looks like book material
• Storyteller Vault will have sections for non-English language submissions
• Apparently this is not just a 'fan share' site as well; they mentioned that you keep half of the revenue, so it looks like it'll actually be for full-on publishing of things via WW.
• Talked about the game finder aspects, and clear labeling of content/expectations in those games
• Talked about an Augmented Reality aspect of the WoD, with an 'in world' website and newsticker
• Same setting bible will be used for every piece of transmedia, which will be reflected in the material in the V5 core and the two initial setting books, Camarilla and Anarch
• Some photos are labeled Elysium and Street; it's a dichotomy between something you'd see on a runway catwalk or in a period piece production vs. modern, yet fashionable clothes.
• Reiteration of the Gehenna stuff we already had. A bit more about the Second Inquisition, in that the vampires' own attempts to use the ABC agencies of government for their own ends is what revealed them and brought about the issue.

[Bobotron]

@Bobotron
And more on combat.

It was one roll, and combatants damaged each other. Armour helped to reduce damage, No soak, no dodge, no damage roll. Damage was based on attack roll and weapon used. It was made clear that we were to expect much more development, but that this simplicity would remain a key focus. One roll whenever possible is a key design goal.

And a very bad picture of the charsheet. Apparently their pre-alpha has relentlessly mined from NWoD as they were using Virtue/Vice.

[Thenomain]

Looking at @Bobotron's sheet.

Art? Art? Thank god it's in super early development.

This looks like a starting character. Did it feel capable? Please say 'yes'. Pllleaaaaaase say 'yes'.

[ZekeTheG33k]

@Thenomain said in Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition Info:

Looking at @Bobotron's sheet.

Art? Art? Thank god it's in super early development.

This looks like a starting character. Did it feel capable? Please say 'yes'. Pllleaaaaaase say 'yes'.
Theno, when I read this I just heard it as Noxeema Jackson...