CofD and Professional Training

[Coin]

@Derp said in CofD and Professional Training:

@Coin said in CofD and Professional Training:

@ThatOneDude said in CofD and Professional Training:

It's weird the concern of 9again and Rote when you can stack specialties. Now granted rote is pretty slick but with PT you burn a WP which in a lot of situations isn't ideal for extended periods of time.

9again is pretty cool but on the probability scale adding dice to normal rolls is most likely more overpowered, more so at the lower levels of a dice roll (number of dice).

So for example. If we use firearms as an example and my character has stats like: Dex 2 and Firearms 2 that gives me a total of 4 dice with no tilts lowering the pool.

If I spend 5 XP to build up specialties related to firearms (Pistols, Revolvers, Colt 45, Antiques, and Aimed Shot). Now in a combat situation with my trusty antique colt 45 my dice pull can be 2 + 2 + 5 + 3 (add willpower) for 12 total dice which has a probability of about 35% - 39% chance of an exceptional success (5 successes) vs 2 + 2 w/rote (spend a WP) for a 4% - 5% chance of an exceptional success. Again that's showing the same XP cost.

Granted more dice with rote will give you significant gains but the biggest bang for your buck really is adding dice to increase probability.

Again with this ridiculously stupid misconceptions of how stacking specialties works. Oy vey.

You keep saying this, @Coin, but even the folks over at Onyx Path are saying that specialties work exactly as @ThatOneDude said above. You can create house rules for your games about it, if you want, but dude, that is the way they are intended to work. That's not a "ridiculously stupid interpretation", that's an interpretation from the people who made the thing themselves.

If you say so.

I'll be happy to discuss with them, too, about how their presentation is clear in a way completely backwards to what they claim outside the actual published material.

[Ghost]

@surreality said in CofD and Professional Training:

Then explain how anyone can get it from using a shotgun.

The shotgun has a superhuman ability to spray metal pellets at speeds of over 1000fps. In that, the accuracy and damage output from a shotgun is far more deadly than any human could throw pellets for damage. The 'again' from the shotgun isn't because of the human, it's because of the spray/spread of the weapon.

So, if the shotgun allows the 'again' on rolls because of its freakish ability to spread damage across a pattern, this still lends towards the idea that humans simply aren't capable of generating their own 8/9again/rote degrees of skill/accuracy on their own.

[surreality]

@Ghost Hyperbole and a real contortionist stretch of logic aren't fact.

And it changes absolutely nothing about the fact that the mechanic is in no way singled out or defined as being indicative of a measure of superhuman or non-mundane ability.

That they wrote it all into a power designed to indicate precisely (edit: those things professionally trained mundane skill), without a supernatural predicate, proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that your preferred interpretation is absolutely nothing more than that and has nothing to do with the intent of the game designers.

You can argue for your perspective, but stop pretending it's some purist approach that's 'the true source of the mechanic', because on its face, that's utter nonsense.

[Ghost]

@surreality I don't appreciate the tone you're taking with me on a constructive thread, when I'm merely stating my viewpoint on a mechanic. I would appreciate it if you turned down the snide attitude a measure.

Having said that, if you feel strongly that the existence of the mechanic itself is proof positive that it's appropriate and not overpowered, you're welcome to your opinion on the matter. Clearly, I have a different viewpoint, and that's okay.

[surreality]

@Ghost said in CofD and Professional Training:

Having said that, if you feel strongly that the existence of the mechanic itself is proof positive that it's appropriate and not overpowered, you're welcome to your opinion on the matter. Clearly, I have a different viewpoint, and that's okay.

If that determination -- not appropriate and overpowered -- is predicated on the notion that 9-again/8-again/rote are intended to define non-mundane/supernatural powers only, that's just factually inaccurate. It's not a matter of opinion.

Love it or hate it, think it should be or shouldn't be, is a different animal; it's no skin off anybody's nose.

Making a design intent/purity argument based on something the actual design directly and frequently contradicts, however, is just a bad argument to use for the preference. If running a game, sure, run with that, because it's pure personal preference and interpretation there. Don't try to sell that interpretation to all and sundry as the intent of the game designers, however, when the facts simply don't support that interpretation.

[Ghost]

@surreality This is a discussion on our opinions and viewpoints on PT in CofD, and I've given them. I've stated reasoning outside of just the question on whether or not 8/9/rote should be limited to equipment/supernatural means, and it was versed as a philosophical question, leading into a few angles on my own interpretation.

WoD has a very rich history since 1st generation of systems, powers, and designs flaws (Secrets of the True Black Hand, for example) that were later interpreted as mistakes, which led to the creation of NWoD, and later CofD. A good number of things done away with seemed to be scrapped due to the original ideas simply being bad ideas (combo disciplines, etc). I personally believe that PT is one of these things that will go down as a mistake due to failed implementation, abuse, and unhinging the balance between mortals and supernaturals.

Disagree with me all you like, but I'm sure you're capable of doing so while remaining civil and without attacking people through their ideas. I simply request that you do so.

[surreality]

@Ghost I'm not calling you any names or slinging insults at you; I am discussing your argument exclusively. Knock off the accusations, please.

There's also a bit of licensing and business transition history involved, not just 'cleaning up mistakes'.

Considering that they heavily revised, and re-released (and re-re-released in every edition for mortal and supernaturals, an expansion from the original Hunter-only approach that TR and FC spread more broadly) PT, I can't say I agree, but that's neither here nor there.

WW/OP doesn't focus on game balance, or trouble themselves much about 'the balance between mortals and supernaturals'. What you're describing increases the imbalance between the two and in a way not indicated in the game's current design by attempting to define the intent behind the mechanic as something other than what it is, which has been reinforced in subsequent editions of the various game lines.

If that's what you think is desirable, this does that. If not, you're not increasing balance, you're highlighting imbalance. Either way, cool, but the difference is relevant.

[Thenomain]

Just to say, but I'm unaware of White Wolf ever explaining when changing the n-again from "10" is a good design decision. If you look at some of the statistical breakdowns, 9-again does not make a small difference until about 5 dice and doesn't make a large difference until about 9 dice.

While I am extremely glad that nWoD completely scrapped the variable target number (8 or nothing!), and I believe in reading between the lines to try and figure out what the intent is, I never got the feeling that n-again shifts were meant to be entirely one thing or another. In practice it increases number of success dice by a minor percentage of the dice rolled, or flattens that chance to a straight line (with No-Again).

[surreality]

@Thenomain See, I love me some target numbers -- but not necessarily in the structure for WoD.

For MUX, I think target numbers can simplify things somewhat; modifiers handle this now, but that's a lot of +/- to keep in mind at all times and their application is dodgy at best in terms of uniformity from scene to scene, ST to ST, etc.

I wouldn't suggest re-introducing them to WoD, but as it stands, that it's as difficult to perform a casual task as it is a very hard one with the same pool is the kind of simplification that breaks reasonableness more than it can be said to enhance it in any way. It's simpler, yes, but that isn't always a selling point.

[Thenomain]

@surreality

I...honestly don't know what you think my point was, or I honestly misunderstand what you are trying to get across. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but don't see how that relates to what I said.

[surreality]

@Thenomain Is a tangent, nothing more.

[Thenomain]

Tangents are, yes.

[surreality]

@Thenomain Was just the mention of the target numbers being eliminated. I don't think that was necessarily a helpful step in the realism department. It was definitely easier to figure than memorizing countless +/- modifiers.

...of course, it still had those anyway, so.

[Coin]

Both 9-again and 8-again are only useful for one thing: having more successes. Your actual chance of FAILURE on any roll is exactly (EXACTLY) the same with or without 8- and/or 9-again, because they only come into action upon a sucessful roll.

This is also why they're so much more useful in a mechanic such as combat (where the amount of successes is extremely important) compared to a simple social or mental roll, which are typically pass/fail/exceptional, where the exceptional is nice, but not necessary.

Rote, on the other hand, is much more useful, because it gives you more dice. 8-again AND Rote is broken because it literally doubles (at bare minimum) your dice pool.

[surreality]

@Coin They're stupid useful for crafting especially, and other extended rolls.

[Coin]

@surreality Thus why I used 'simple'.

[surreality]

@Coin With most of the crafting stuff, it tends to become a factor of 'got it done faster than a non-professional' more than anything else, with the various PT bonuses, since people generally have enough dice to make something unless it's pretty extreme. Which is a fairly realistic representation of 'how a professional does it' vs. an amateur. There's hobbyist clique, too, for that, for non-professional groups to essentially manage the same.

[Ghost]

However, the 8/9/rote bonus from PT doesn't clarify that it should be reserved to simple tasks.

For example, if an artist character has PT: Artist to rank 5, they'll have 8/9/rote on all crafts checks.

Now, realistically, a well trained artist (using chef as an example) should be able to craft a better than normal ham and cheese sandwich, reasonably, with rote successes, but when it comes to complex, highly difficult, or experimental meals, the degree of difficulty and attention required comes up, and I don't feel that even famous chefs like Gordon Ramsay do highly difficult things so simply.

I have zero doubt that Gordon Ramsay could cook me up a super-nice, rote-grade version of macaroni and cheese with his eyes closed, but where PT is concerned, Gordon Ramsay (crafts5 w 8/9/rote) could approach the following as if they were as difficult as making macaroni and cheese:

• Making a katana
• Cooking a Michelin Star grade meal for the Queen of England
• a birthday cake made out of human skin
• Recreating the Mona Lisa with matching brush strokes
• Making a samurai grade suit of lamellar armor to go along with a Hanzo sword of his own design.

This is where I think PT is broken. IMO the benefits should all be restricted to uses WITHIN SAID PROFESSION and the rote usage should be restricted to dice rolls that are not considered extended dice rolls.

Be it NWoD or CofD, I've seen too many people apply benefits of PT to other used outside of their professional training. Staff should make this distinction and keep an eye on it.

In short: Being an expert pastry chef with 8/9/rote on crafts rolls should never be applied to forging Hattori Hanzo katana

Edit/Afterthought: It is my belief that the draw for PT isn't to have 8/9/rote in <skillname> rolls pertaining to profession, but to have 8/9/rote in all uses of that skill, which is overpowered and, IMO, gamebreaking.

[Misadventure]

Have you not seen Shaolin Soccer?

Literally, cooking becomes goalie kung fu.

[surreality]

@Ghost That's a problem with the overly broad skills in WoD, not a problem with PT.

Is what you're describing it any less ridiculous without PT? Nah, because their pool for Crafts is the same for all of those things with or without PT. Which is already oceans of dumb.