Werewolf 2.0 & Nine Ways It Could Be Streamlined

[TNP]

He's right Theno. If you weren't intelligent, creative and willing to put yourself out for the benefit of others, who the hell would bother with you? You obviously have no redeeming qualities.

[EmmahSue]

Try to keep it mildly constructive towards the topic at hand, pretty please.

ES

[Alzie]

@crusader said:

@Alzie said:

Again, you're reading far too much into the shapeshifting thing. The book does not spend that much time on the shapeshifting hurts bit.

I didn't go on about it 'hurting'. I just said that it repeatedly advises the storyteller to play up the drama of the transition.

No, it really doesn't. As even that small paragraph that has been quoted demonstrates. The first change doesn't even go through a great deal to tell you to emphasize that it's a harrowing experience. In fact, it says it might not even be that harrowing and there's nothing wrong with that. You're drawing conclusions from something, but whatever it is, it's not in the 2.0 book.

Forsaken 2.0 emphasizes the shadow to an extreme. The entire origin story is about the shadow. You realized this right?

It's not as emphasized as in Forsaken 1.0. You realize that was the point I was trying to make, right? I came to this conclusion by various means, such as there no longer being spirit children from taboo matings, its harder to step over into the Shadow and more discouraged, and only Bone Shadows are as focused on spirits as all uratha were in Forsaken 1.0.

Thanks for the feedback.

Not as Emphasized?

Shapes and Shadows (p.66)
Werewolves maintain their territories on both sides of
the Gauntlet. The two halves of the world are linked, and
each requires a different approach.

First Change (p.57)
Depending on his auspice, a young werewolf may catch
glimpses of the Hisil, be accosted by spirits, or may start to
hear or smell things well outside of his previous experience.

Duality and Edges (P.8)
Humans cross to
the Shadow by accident or stolen knowledge. Spirits cross to
the physical world to bolster their power or hide from other
spirits. You can step between both worlds, so you can return
your prey to its proper place.

The shadow and spirits (p.178)
Dividing the twinned worlds was Father Wolf’s task. Now
it falls to the Forsaken.
The Wolf Must Hunt.

The shadow and spirits (p.179)
Uratha can use a locus to Reach and cross between
worlds, as described in Chapter Three. (just by the by, since you keep saying they can't)

There is literally an entire chapter dedicated to the shadow and spirits. Not emphasized as much.

Chapter 5, P 200. Spirits. All about spirits and how werewolves hunt them.

Not emphasized as much.

[crusader]

@Alzie said:

Chapter 5, P 200. Spirits. All about spirits and how werewolves hunt them.

I didn't say it was entirely de-emphasized. Just that it wasn't emphasized as much as Forsaken 1.0. Clearly, we have differently nuanced barometers for judging such things.

I respect your opinion on it.

What did you think about the other eight points, purely from the perspective of introducing casual people to the game? (Those who will probably never own a White Wolf book, but will still play it).

[Alzie]

@crusader Before I answer that. Am I answering them in the context of Forsaken 2.0 or in the context of a non-forsaken 2.0 game that just happens to draw some rules from Forsaken 2.0?

[crusader]

@Alzie said:

@crusader Before I answer that. Am I answering them in the context of Forsaken 2.0 or in the context of a non-forsaken 2.0 game that just happens to draw some rules from Forsaken 2.0?

In the context of either Forsaken 1.0 or 2.0, and in your experience, what most players (not the hardened vets) seem to struggle with comprehending or doing justice. I'd also be curious if your perspective was as a fellow player observing other players, or if you've ST'd or helped people through Werewolf chargen, and what they might've struggled with there.

I think my solutions might not be the best, or right for everyone, but I do think Werewolf has a disparity vs some of White Wolf's other splats, in how comfortable the majority of casuals are with its highly intricate lore. Whereas say for Vampire, they just need to have seen Blade or Interview with a Vampire, to get like 90% of its main tropes.

What I've noticed is that for a surprising number of players (probably 1/3rd to 1/2) even after years and years, they never make any real progress with it.

[Alzie]

@crusader Okay, I'll answer then. Being someone who has helped people through Chargen, helped make totems, helped stat out loci, helped define an area's shadow, TL'd spirits, ST'd spirits and werewolf content and handled fetishes.

2. Loci are a needless complication.

Loci aren't even that complicated. They're nexi on leylines (where multiple leylines intersect - even if white wolf will never say this. This is going to spark a major debate but whatever.). This is a place where the gauntlet is weak and essence bleeds through. They are also places where werewolves can move into the shadow. I have never met a player that didn't at least understand what a loci is. it was more likely they had issues with the stepping sideways mechanics than understanding what a loci is.

3. Auspices are a needless complication

Auspices are literally what defines a forsaken werewolf. Through Luna, they are given their place. The roles expressed in the book are examples, these are the most expected roles, but even the book says that there is nothing stopping the rahu from being a non-murderous werewolf. Werewolves will experience and apply their auspice differently depending on their personal experiences, both before and after the change. This is normal. Both books said this was normal. They're less about 'shut up and act like how I tell you' and more about 'You were given a gift, determining how you best use that gift is part of your struggle.'

4. Gifts are too tribe/auspice dependent

There is a thematic reason that these gifts are locked to specific tribes and auspices. When you gain a tribe/auspice, you are sworn to a specific spirit or group of spirits. That's who you learn from. There's a totem at work here. All gifts are given from spirits and can be learned from spirits. There's nothing actually stopping a werewolf from learning gifts outside his tribe/auspice what have you, it's just extremely unlikely, in the sense that a werewolf suddenly manifesting the ability to cast mage spells is unlikely. However, if you want to run a campaign where players go to great lengths to convince these great totems to teach them these gifts, then shit, no one here cares.

5. Current Renown expectations are unenforceable.

Raising renown costs the same as raising an attribute because it has the potential to raise several attributes at once. There is an overabundance of gifts that raise attributes, health, whatever based on your renown. Renown is infinitely more useful than an attribute purchase. In that respect, renown is actually cheap in terms of an xp to benefit look. I would posit renown should be more expensive, but if it was, no one would buy it. I would almost rather give renown for free at a capped rate based on scenes.

As for the other issues, that's bad staff. Not bad players. Staff shouldn't be giving honor to the twink ass. Staff should have been aware based on logs that the guy asking for 5 honor was a twink ass. And if they weren't, they didn't read his logs. And if no logs are required for renown, that's even more retarded.

As for deciding what gives renown, that's a per game per staff decision. Even the book says that the GM should sit down with players and talk about what gives renown. the book suggestions are just that: suggestions. It calls them baselines.

6. Tribes are a thematic atavism from the 1990s (Lore Hack)

There's not really anything to respond to here. You think the tribes in the book are racially inclined. Fine, I get it. You want to make your own tribes up? Fine, whatever. It's not like anyone had told you that you weren't allowed to. Knock yourself out.

7. Primal Urge should be more of a 'way of life' and less a power stat.

This boils down to 'I don't like the drawbacks of this stat, so it shouldn't be a stat.' Which is silly of course, but also ironic since you were all over the werewolf forms for not having enough drawbacks. In any case, I can't really respond to 'I don't like the drawbacks' and you didn't provide alternative draw backs. Given that I don't have any issue with primal urge, I have nothing to say on it.

8. Harmony (and Integrity/Humanity) is a needless complication (Morality Hack)

Who needs morality? Am I right? I would be wrong. You would be wrong. On Kingsmouth, we enforce humanity. It works just fine. People roll breaking points all the time. Cruac is the most frequent cause of them. People RP their low humanity, they take their licks in social penalties. I have not seen this 'people ignore their humanity.' On the other hand, what you need to realize is that humanity/harmony, as presented in the books, is not an absolute. As the book states, I'll use an example from the WoD Core: A serial killer's humanity chart is going to be different than a mother of 3's humanity chart. And you know what? Per Core, that was totally fine. This was reiterated in 2.0.

9. The terror and thrill of shapeshifting is diluted by too many forms

I've already touched on this. The book is clear that each form is fundamentally different. It's a fundamentally different change each time. So I don't think it's diluted at all.

[crusader]

@Alzie said:

Bunch've a stuff

Some good feedback here. You sort've misread what I meant on a few points, (judging by the rebuttal to 4, 5, 6, 7 and ), but I get where you're coming from. I know what the ideal is (and you have done a very good job articulating what the ideal is).

Generally speaking, I think storytelling 'spirit content' as opposed to actually running a werewolf-focused game, doesn't provide the same exposure.

Not because this makes your opinions anymore or less valid (I find your objections perfectly valid), but because I think there are certain elements in each game or splat, that are not as readily apparent or more easily overlooked without that focus. And I don't think it merely boils down to bad staff or bad players, because it's just so common.

I'm going to pose a few questions to you. They do not align with the points above, but are a new list.

1. How many storytellers have you seen ever consistently bring a pack's totem to life? Or was it mostly ignored and its existence/demands/activities handwaved, except where brought to life by one of the players?
2. How many storytellers have you seen consistently play up the spirit drama, scavenging and predation around a loci? Do you acknowledge that no game has ever coded a logical loci? The Reach is a great example of completely silly and illogical loci which amass hundreds of essence points and are never needed anyways (cause of the chron).
3. How many times have you RPd a scene, where you had to hunt down a spirit for its essence?
4. Do you acknowledge that on most games, the whole concept of essence maintenance is more or less coded into a completely handwaved, non-issue? There's actually a few highly specific ways that werewolves gain essence, and in tabletop, players are rarely if ever topped up, but its such a bureaucratic nightmare that no known MUSH has ever done anything but set it on a chron.
5. Have you ever ST'd a scene where a player tracked down a spirit to learn a gift, or had one run for you? Was it a common experience, or was it virtually always handwaved?
6. Instead of speaking in broad terms, do you have any realistic or pragmatic experience with a werewolf sphere's Renown issues? It's a constant hotbed of discontent, as to who deserves what renown, and why Glory 4 was approved for Bill but not me. Keep in mind, I wouldn't remove Renown, but I would treat it more like a focus than earned from merit.
7. Kingsmouth is a vampire only game, and Humanity at least, is a very clear cut theme. Do you acknowledge that Harmony is completely overdone in Forsaken 2.0? There's literally a potential for dozens of rolls a night, and it's extremely easy to return to the 'optimal' baseline of 4-6 (such as simply by having intercourse with a human, or not shifting for a bit, etc).
8. Do you not acknowledge that on many games, perceived unfairness in Morality check demands often makes for +job drama? It makes many players feel that their agency is being taken away from them or enforced arbitrarily. It often devolves into rules lawyerings as to what people can get away, and is often either pushed for little things, or ignored when it should've been a huge deal. There's no consistency.

It's true that a lot of these points can be answered with a hypothetical ideal staff or player substituted, but you have to be realistic about what bar the majority of staff is capable of meeting. If something vital in the books is mostly handwaved or ignored on a MUSH, or done extremely inconsistently, it might be doing more harm than good.

---

Lastly, re Primal Urge. That really wasn't what I was talking about at all, but perhaps it was more my fault at not conveying it very well. I love drawbacks, and I don't know how you got the impression that I didn't like Primal Urge's drawbacks. I just didn't like players being too obsessed about the power stat, and wanted them to see it as something they needed to raise to remain competitive, but as more of a roleplaying decision.

Other things, are less worth hashing over. But I thought I'd clarify that. (I still think if anyone actually liked werewolf, played werewolf, and ST'd werewolf, they'd see an improvement in the game's dynamic by focusing on three forms rather than 5, but there's not much more to be said on that).

[crusader]

There's also an issue with each new pack app on a grid believing they have a god given right to their own loci in their own private building project, or else they're getting fucked. And then when they're gone, the loci is forgotten.

The best way to do loci, would have been like you said...already predetermined leylines that had to be claimed and protected on the grid. Not nestled away inside someone's home (how convenient!!). Loci should be in somewhat awkward places to perfectly control or contain. That's probably how they became loci in the first places.

It just seems so much cleaner to tie it into territory (how many grid spaces a pack can claim and patrol) and how large their numbers are.

[Alzie]

@crusader said:

Generally speaking, I think storytelling 'spirit content' as opposed to actually running a werewolf-focused game, doesn't provide the same exposure.

Not because this makes your opinions anymore or less valid (I find your objections perfectly valid), but because I think there are certain elements in each game or splat, that are not as readily apparent or more easily overlooked without that focus. And I don't think it merely boils down to bad staff or bad players, because it's just so common.

I'm not sure why this should make me feel inclined to continue to converse with you.

How many storytellers have you seen ever consistently bring a pack's totem to life? Or was it mostly ignored and its existence/demands/activities handwaved, except where brought to life by one of the players?

On a mush? Where there are 57 players and 6 and 7 packs? That gets tricky. I don't think that's a realistic expectation for a mush. The players have brought their totem to life. STs can however use the totem for plots and to bring their sphere to life. Not being able to individually scene each totem doesn't mean we should erase all totems. Totems are a big deal for werewolf. That being said, they were held to the bans and banes in my experience. Which is why the bane and bane had to be something noticeable and something in their rp.

How many storytellers have you seen consistently play up the spirit drama, scavenging and predation around a loci? Do you acknowledge that no game has ever coded a logical loci? The Reach is a great example of completely silly and illogical loci which amass hundreds of essence points and are never needed anyways (cause of the chron).

Everyone acknowledges the loci on the reach are broken...except for head staff (Liz). Thenomain said they were broken, I said they were broken, Alamut said they were broken, I as a coder staff said they were broken, Feral staff said they were broken, random players said they were broken. So trust me, everyone knows they're broken. That being said, there were plots designed to go around the predation, however it wasn't allowed. A small subset of players would get mad. It was deemed to be not worth it. I have however seen games play up that aspect well. So in terms of numbers, i would say 4 story tellers I guess. Not counting myself.

How many times have you RPd a scene, where you had to hunt down a spirit for its essence?

Me? Never. However, I don't think you understand how that works either. How do you envision this working? The werewolf hunts the spirit down, kills it, gains the essence? That's not how that works.

Do you acknowledge that on most games, the whole concept of essence maintenance is more or less coded into a completely handwaved, non-issue? There's actually a few highly specific ways that werewolves gain essence, and in tabletop, players are rarely if ever topped up, but its such a bureaucratic nightmare that no known MUSH has ever done anything but set it on a chron.

If by few highly specific ways you mean quite a few ways sure. Loci, Spirits can gift essence, staying in hisil. IF your players are never topped up, what are they doing? It's not that hard. Are they all PU 10 or some shit?

Have you ever ST'd a scene where a player tracked down a spirit to learn a gift, or had one run for you? Was it a common experience, or was it virtually always handwaved?

I've never desired to learn a gift outside my auspice/tribe and occasionally lodge gift set. That being said, I did oversee one ran.

Instead of speaking in broad terms, do you have any realistic or pragmatic experience with a werewolf sphere's Renown issues?

Yes, as I processed them for a good couple years. It wasn't anything like your describe. There were always those few players, but there will always be those few players. We always encouraged people to come to us first and discuss their raises after a certain point. It made it easier. That worked.

Do you acknowledge that Harmony is completely overdone in Forsaken 2.0?

No more than I acknowledge that any other humanity stat is outdone in 2.0. If you play the right type of PC you can literally roll once a minute. If your ST is particularly an asshole, you can find nit picky reasons to force breaking points almost everywhere. This is not a new thing and werewolf is not unique.

Do you not acknowledge that on many games, perceived unfairness in Morality check demands often makes for +job drama?

No. I've never experienced that at all. Sorry to say.

[The Tree of Woe]

Actually I find that games are often too lenient with morality checks. Half of HM's mage genre should've been cackling and insane, and ALL of their Changeling genre should've been.

[Miss Demeanor]

@The-Tree-of-Woe Dude, you don't even KNOW. I played a Fairest who spent the better part of a year doing HORRIBLE things, unoathed to the Freehold, and I -still- couldn't lose a Clarity check to drop to 4. Sometimes, the dice hate in the wrong direction.

[Arkandel]

For many players resource management is in no way an enjoyable part of the game.

For example most vampire players don't want to have to go out and roleplay hunting every time, for example, so I don't see Loci providing more Essence than expected as a problem.

Conversely, roleplaying such scenes has its place (as it should) but just because Storytellers aren't throwing plots based around it too often, preferring other venues to have fun, doesn't mean these elements aren't thematic or important to the game. Vampires still do go out to suck people's blood every night or two, after all, it just isn't a constant source of RP for all of them.

[Thenomain]

I think it would be pretty cool if someone would start a thread that came up with and possibly solicited ideas to make WoD rules Mu-friendly while at the same time keeping the most important themes so people can still play the game they read about, but without the necessity to play a rules-heavy game if that got in the way of the role-play. I think it's widely accepted that we're playing a game that is mainly ill-suited for the Mu* social structure and lack-of-table atmosphere.

It's my personal desire to put "you can still play the book rules verbatim if you want" in there because tho I think some of it is downright silly and tedious, as @Arkandel points out, some people do enjoy it, just as some people don't.

Mind, I think the answer is largely one of expectations of and from Storytellers and Players and Staff to all be flexible with the flow of a game and be able to just say, "Eh, fuck it, you jump on the dragon's back and roll good enough to K.O. it in the back of the head."

[Misadventure]

What are the areas that are problematic on a MU*? Many powers? Many stats and skills and merits? Unclear outlines of what should be easy, or hard for a given type of character? Equalizing access to plots? No idea what to do so you get mired in day to day round by round rolls instead of finding something a little more interesting than procedural dice rolling? Too many players expecting play at any hour day and night so plots and characterization get lost?

[Thenomain]

I'm not sure. It would be a good start to find out what people don't engage with consistently. For instance, Loci are something that is very important thematically, but is it worth the administrative overhead which could, in a tabletop game, be hand-waved? Then it could be used in plots or, say, when you want to draw from it a different roll that is Mux-specific can be created.

E.g., Primal Urge + Loci - Guardians +/- modifiers based upon amount of attention given to it, number of times it's been drawn from, and other ST stuff.

Yes, the goal there is to make WoD For Mush, just as there is WoD For Larp.

[Alzie]

@Thenomain If WoD for Larp is Mind's Eye Theatre, would WoD for Mush be called Event Horizon?