Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning

[Arkandel]

I don't know if this is a rant or a request for comments but here goes.

I've been running PrPs on Arx which has been fun; for starters there are always people (so...many...people) which means I never had to postpone things because no one showed up. For another the system is super easy to use - for the uninitiated there's a @check command which is the equivalent of +roll/+dice on other MU*, and since there is no official mechanical system you just roll whichever stats you want, such as say, dexterity+athletics... and that's it. It couldn't be simpler, which was a godsend for me since I figured it'd focus people on posing.

However!

This is hardly an Arx-specific thing but I really wish some players would stop trying so hard to be nonchalant and cool as a cucumber about everything that's happening. Building atmosphere while dealing with a large number of people, most of whom are OOC unknown to the runner, is tricky to begin with without having characters show up literally yawning about the possibility of assassination attempts and demonic invasions. On top of this I introduced challenges (tied to metaplot after discussions with staff) to which OOC response was somewhat lukewarm - it's as if as long as it doesn't involve apocalyptic-level events that can wipe civilization if they aren't stopped it's not worth their time.

This is a pretty hard issue to solve. I don't know that it can happen on the ST level. If constant escalation is the only way to keep things interesting that's a dead end plot-wise.

The other thing is... it's no secret Arx has an emerging dino issue since people - especially ones present in alpha - have a crapton of XPs and gear, but public scenes even now consist very clearly of the haves and have nots. The same challenge ("climb a wall") is barely made or failed by some while others score as much as three times the necessary difficulty they need to achieve it. This effect is only going to become more prominent and it will increasingly turn newbies and casual players irrelevant; it's disheartening to play a healer when the person next to you is a better healer but also a superb swordsman and expert politician who's also a High Lord with a glowing sword that talks and solves crossword puzzles.

Overall the activity level is so high things continue to be fun, but I'm curious to see if others have ran into similar challenges. Perhaps this is just what I've encountered so far and it's more anecdotal than I think it is. For the time being what I'll do is limit the scope of upcoming PrPs and aim them at smaller, more focused groups to see if that works better.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel The XP issue is actually one of the things that particularly concerns me, design-wise, moving forward. Especially since with the training thing, people who have more money can open an /even larger/ gap in progression between the haves and have nots. It's definitely a concern, I think. Especially since some of the things that SHOULD matter (conflict of interest, other duties) for those in high places don't really matter - a High Lord doesn't actually have any of their IC time taken up by their duties, so they're free to go out and smash things on the battlefield, hang out in the slums making friends with peasants, join the Faith, research all the magics, etc.

The new AP system might help a little with the 'be all the places, do all the things' issue, but the XP is still a problem.

Meanwhile, the "I'm too cool for school" crap is ALWAYS an issue, and it's really annoying. I'm not keen on people who have their characters have hysterics or breakdowns and disrupt plots, but damn, wo/man, show some human emotions. I remember being in one plot where the GM was posing some really great, spooky as hell stuff, and I was enjoying my character having some significant reactions to that...but the other character was just like, "Eh." And then I felt silly.

[saosmash]

Start demanding composure checks from the blase. Bet you half a dollar they aren't sheeted for it.

[Packrat]

The XP thing is a big concern of me as well, especially as the normal response to it being raised is vague mention of plans to add 'Abilities' or additional skills for say, maxed out combat people to continue to spend xp on. That is not a solution! That will just make the problem worse. They definitely missed a huge opportunity to wipe at the end of alpha then institute a much slower xp progression, ideally combined with say more starting skill points especially for older characters, commoners, or those who are otherwise expected to already be experts.

There is the system were costs build as you spend xp but I am not sure how this interacts with training, I actually feel it makes the problem worse because from what I recall hearing it increases the cost of new skills based not on your skill levels, but instead on how much xp you have spent. Raised skills without training? Welcome to being permanently inferior. I might be wrong about that but it is still a lot easier for somebody rich to get that training and thus save xp.

Essentially if anyone wants to be a combat badass, the time is passed, they really needed to apply back in alpha and ideally as a Grayson prince/princess or as a landed noble so that they could accumulate cash for the most shiny gear. Keep in mind that in early alpha a lot of the great house Swords had say, medium weapon 2. The entire scale has changed dramatically.

Equipment is also weirdly important but hits a soft cap fairly quickly, somebody in say refined HQ leather/steel with a HQ steel weapon has likely spent about 30,000 silver or perhaps a hundred odd economic resources, which can be obtained week one with a +task and no income plus a little trading for cash. Further improvements are then marginal unless somebody spends hundreds of thousands on a decent quality alacarite or diamondplate weapon, but somebody with such a weapon can then basically just slaughter equal skill opponents. They might be doing 30-40% more damage but when armour is absorbing most of the damage when you hit? You are suddenly hitting 2-3 times as hard against peer opponents.

[Arkandel]

@Pyrephox said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Arkandel The XP issue is actually one of the things that particularly concerns me, design-wise, moving forward. Especially since with the training thing, people who have more money can open an /even larger/ gap in progression between the haves and have nots. It's definitely a concern, I think. Especially since some of the things that SHOULD matter (conflict of interest, other duties) for those in high places don't really matter - a High Lord doesn't actually have any of their IC time taken up by their duties, so they're free to go out and smash things on the battlefield, hang out in the slums making friends with peasants, join the Faith, research all the magics, etc.

Well, I'm sure the AP system was designed (at least in part) to address the multitasking thing, for sure. In a strange way though it will, at least in some ways, actually impact the have-nots more; for instance if it costs me a ton of AP I am least inclined to share my @clues with newbie #2871 that I just met.

But the thing is, it's really hard to systematize these things because in some ways they are working as intended. You pointed out one way; someone with the relevant Teaching skill can convey massive XP discounts, but only get a limited number of training sessions to use per week, so obviously those with resources or allies can benefit more, which isn't unreasonable. People with cash and favors to call are supposed to have an advantage, right?

There's some gaming the system obviously. For instance folks mass-messaging everyone they've ever met then asking for support with their tasks yields zero RP - it's simply a resources grab. It's nothing new for people to mistake cause and effect (the in-game carrots are supposed to generate roleplay, players aren't supposed to treat roleplaying as the barrier between them and the carrots!) but it's more prominent on Arx due to its size.

Meanwhile, the "I'm too cool for school" crap is ALWAYS an issue, and it's really annoying. I'm not keen on people who have their characters have hysterics or breakdowns and disrupt plots, but damn, wo/man, show some human emotions. I remember being in one plot where the GM was posing some really great, spooky as hell stuff, and I was enjoying my character having some significant reactions to that...but the other character was just like, "Eh." And then I felt silly.

Yes, that's basically it. The ST needs to enjoy themselves too; my character isn't in the scene, the only entertainment is in the interaction between the story and characters participating in it; if they're largely uninterested in engaging then I am not having much fun either. But come on, every PrP can't be about armies trying to obliterate everyone - if we have to one-up the stakes every time then clearly this isn't going to work out... something has to give. Plus it leaves entire thematic tropes completely uninvolved - crime, horror, swashbuckling adventuring, etc.

You know what the curious thing is though? I had a conversation recently with a member of my House who was complaining OOC that he has nothing to do, doesn't know what to do... he's just feeling blah. In the mean time he avoids playing about anything fun; he almost always joins RP, by his own admission, when there are people he can farm @randomscenes from, plays to improve his gear and gather resources to trade and improve his gear, etc. So essentially this guy plays the game in the least entertaining way possible then he's puzzled it's not engaging him. Which is the flipside of this whole situation, and a real head-scratcher for me.

[Pyrephox]

@Packrat Yeah. Honestly, as painful as it would be, the game probably needs an XP wipe at some point before going to its final version. And probably while they're still testing systems, too - if they norm the systems for the current XP distribution, it's going to really hurt people who are new to the game.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@Arkandel said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

You know what the curious thing is though? I had a conversation recently with a member of my House who was complaining OOC that he has nothing to do, doesn't know what to do... he's just feeling blah. In the mean time he avoids playing about anything fun; he almost always joins RP, by his own admission, when there are people he can farm @randomscenes from, plays to improve his gear and gather resources to trade and improve his gear, etc. So essentially this guy plays the game in the least entertaining way possible then he's puzzled it's not engaging him. Which is the flipside of this whole situation, and a real head-scratcher for me.

MU*s are funny things. I've been thinking about this off and on lately. Dunno why. Anyway.

They're story games (which I still consider very much a game, just of a different sort), but there's no way to win a story game. Except by getting the bestest story, and that's extremely ephemeral. It depends on there being story to get at all, which is up to the game to create, but it also depends on you the player making a smaller story you're interested in that jives with the larger ones. And on finding the right RP group, because I at least find these games "matter" most when I've got people to explore story after-math with. And on getting in on the right plots at the right time. And and and. Lots of things you really can't build for.

Whereas, if you have systems and mechanics, there are tangible ways to do shit and it's fairly easy (if occasionally grindy) to work toward them. Maybe your friend is trying to find the intangible fun by pursuing the tangible? Wouldn't work for me, but I can kinda see it. I think we make this kind of mistake a lot, across a lot of games, but I don't know a reliable path toward the intangible funs.

[Roz]

@Packrat said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

There is the system were costs build as you spend xp but I am not sure how this interacts with training, I actually feel it makes the problem worse because from what I recall hearing it increases the cost of new skills based not on your skill levels, but instead on how much xp you have spent. Raised skills without training? Welcome to being permanently inferior. I might be wrong about that but it is still a lot easier for somebody rich to get that training and thus save xp.

I can answer this one: it's based on the original cost of your skill buys. So training doesn't actually reduce your XP tax.

@saosmash said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

Start demanding composure checks from the blase. Bet you half a dollar they aren't sheeted for it.

This this this. I've seen big stoic characters forced to react appropriately in certain GMed scenes because of composure checks.

[3543thrh67]

I just find it hard to be involved in plots in general, honestly. I have said before I am not aggressive about getting involved in things, mainly because I don't like to force people to RP with me. Except with friends I am all about being a jerk to friends. If you can't be a jerk to friends then who can you be a jerk too? I also don't incline towards fighter types. Most of what I've seen, thus far, involves being combat able. I play socialite types. So, I don't feel like I should be getting involved in these grand fights and what not.

[Packrat]

One thing that I do feel hurts the game is that athletics and survival are both combat skills, meaning they are expensive and also generic amoungst people who are going to go off on Adventure Stuff. Essentially it means anyone who is liable to head off on a quest is going to have the same skillset, just some will be outright better or worse than others. Not ideal.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

Well, I'm sure the AP system was designed (at least in part) to address the multitasking thing, for sure. In a strange way though it will, at least in some ways, actually impact the have-nots more; for instance if it costs me a ton of AP I am least inclined to share my @clues with newbie #2871 that I just met.

Yeah. The AP system needs some tweaking going forward, to be sure (and that part of it does disproportionately impact the newbies, unfortunately) but on the /whole/, I like it and think it has real potential to rein in some of the issues.

But the thing is, it's really hard to systematize these things because in some ways they are working as intended. You pointed out one way; someone with the relevant Teaching skill can convey massive XP discounts, but only get a limited number of training sessions to use per week, so obviously those with resources or allies can benefit more, which isn't unreasonable. People with cash and favors to call are supposed to have an advantage, right?

That is a thing to consider. There's a careful balance to be pondered between OOC equality-of-agency and IC inequality-of-theme. Someone who apps in a hardscrabble peddler of common birth /should not/ have the same access to, say, alaricite as a Great Lord on a systemic level. But, just as true, there should be things that the commoner /can/ do that the Great Lord can't, because being a Great Lord (or any noble) should come with some real consequences for acting in a manner befitting of the nobility.

Spend all your time hanging out in the Lower Burroughs and telling them to just call you Jack? /Your/ commoners should realize that they have a soft lord, and start holding back their taxes and tithes. After all, you are a Man of the People, and thus should be totally okay with them spending that money on their families instead of your silks, right? Want to put yourself on the front lines of the battle when you're not married and don't even have the hope of a legitimate heir? Your vassals should feel some kind of way about that, including seeing if there's a way to take advantage of the instability in the wake of your heroic death (which, you know, if there's a /great/ way to take advantage of it might happen sooner than you think...), which means they should start squabbling among themselves, jockeying for position to take advantage. More IC power should mean more IC consequences.

You know what the curious thing is though? I had a conversation recently with a member of my House who was complaining OOC that he has nothing to do, doesn't know what to do... he's just feeling blah. In the mean time he avoids playing about anything fun; he almost always joins RP, by his own admission, when there are people he can farm @randomscenes from, plays to improve his gear and gather resources to trade and improve his gear, etc. So essentially this guy plays the game in the least entertaining way possible then he's puzzled it's not engaging him. Which is the flipside of this whole situation, and a real head-scratcher for me.

There's a certain sort of player - and I see this a lot in video game discussions, too - who feel absolutely compelled to optimize their character and acquisition of resources whenever possible, even if doing so makes the game actively unfun for them. I don't know where it comes from, but I've seen it plenty of times.

[Packrat]

@Pyrephox said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

Want to put yourself on the front lines of the battle when you're not married and don't even have the hope of a legitimate heir?

To be fair this one is already dealt with in game from what I have seen, placing yourself on the front lines of the battle seems to have a fairly reasonable chance of getting you killed, then you are dead. Though it could well be that it involves combat checks meaning the existing super badasses are very unlikely to ever fall victim to this with newbies being reaped like grass before the scythe.

[Thenomain]

@Pyrephox

Concerning your second point, "gaming the system" is popular for games, even role playing games. I've seen this behavior from both Mushers and Mudders; if you put a system in front of some people, they are going to analyze and use the system in front of them.

[Arkandel]

@Packrat said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

One thing that I do feel hurts the game is that athletics and survival are both combat skills, meaning they are expensive and also generic amoungst people who are going to go off on Adventure Stuff. Essentially it means anyone who is liable to head off on a quest is going to have the same skillset, just some will be outright better or worse than others. Not ideal.

That's true. But there's truly no way around it; roughly the same things combat and war naturally require are key for adventuring in general. If I run, say, a dungeon-crawl type of affair then the skills required will overlap with the stuff soldiers buy.

But it goes beyond that. For instance I was trying to do some experimental stuff and see how much interest exists in it; there's no template (or at least none I'm aware of) for it, so I was making shit up as I went along, and one of those things was to have an improvised weapons duel. The idea was to not have everyone show up in their favorite super expensive weapons and do their standard super optimized rolls but they had to enter a yard and fight each other with anything they could conceal on their persons - what I imagined was getting folks creative with hair pins, their own clothes used offensively, steel balls carried in a pocket and used as projectiles, hand to hand combat... that sort of thing.

But that didn't happen. Perhaps the onus was on me to talk about it with participants before the fact and get them riled up, I'm not sure. On top of it someone complained after they lost because their opponent used a practice sword instead of a real sword which was a headache either way; one because it was supposed to be an opportunity to pose something somewhat new, and the other because 'who won' didn't mean anything. Just the fact people were disappointed afterwards was a let down, you know?

@Pyrephox said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

That is a thing to consider. There's a careful balance to be pondered between OOC equality-of-agency and IC inequality-of-theme. Someone who apps in a hardscrabble peddler of common birth /should not/ have the same access to, say, alaricite as a Great Lord on a systemic level. But, just as true, there should be things that the commoner /can/ do that the Great Lord can't, because being a Great Lord (or any noble) should come with some real consequences for acting in a manner befitting of the nobility.

I would say at this point in the game there is great urgency based on rank (High Lords have a huge advantage) and soldier ability. The more you stray out of these two niches the least involved you can be in cool things.

But the other thing is, there's a lot of redundancy in agency as well. For instance my character got a cool secret and then was shared a neat also top-secret @clue; I thought I'd be able to milk both for some roleplay... until I went out there and tried to discuss them both. Four out of four PCs he went to confide in and involve in them already knew everything about them, plus some. So what I thought was important going to prove to be great leverage to get roleplay out of forming alliances were proven to be duds.

There are many characters around who literally know all the things - it's not just XP and skills, it's information, political positioning, resources, you name it.

There's a certain sort of player - and I see this a lot in video game discussions, too - who feel absolutely compelled to optimize their character and acquisition of resources whenever possible, even if doing so makes the game actively unfun for them. I don't know where it comes from, but I've seen it plenty of times.

But I am one of those players. I absolutely want to optimize my character, I enjoy it. But - again, for example - when he went on a drive to try and recruit help for his pet projects (and make resources to improve his gear, retainers, etc) that meant running IC events showcasing the benefits of being offered this support. This is hard work that I enjoyed putting in, but it's also... hard work, right? Yet I wouldn't change that, even when I know others are just sending out messengers to do the same thing in a couple of paragraphs; yes, it would save me the trouble but it would also deprive me of the roleplay.

Then what the fuck would I do with the gear and the stuff if I'm not playing the game in the mean time? Woohoo, my sword glows red now, yay.

[TNP]

@Arkandel said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

Well, I'm sure the AP system was designed (at least in part) to address the multitasking thing, for sure. In a strange way though it will, at least in some ways, actually impact the have-nots more; for instance if it costs me a ton of AP I am least inclined to share my @clues with newbie #2871 that I just met.

Just recently made this same exact point. AP are limited and have multiple uses to that benefit the player: investigations being a prime example which was also just made harder to do successfully. Sharing a clue gives the player no benefit at all and actively penalizes them by using AP which they need for other things.

[Cupcake]

@Arkandel said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I would say at this point in the game there is great urgency based on rank (High Lords have a huge advantage) and soldier ability. The more you stray out of these two niches the least involved you can be in cool things.

I don't know if I agree with this? I can only speak from personal experience, but my character is neither a High Lord nor a combatant. Granted, she is well placed in society and has a lot of ears willing to listen to her, but a lot of my engagement in the game has come from her secrets, the written in desire for social justice of the character, and my own penchant for world building. There are quite a few pursuits to be found for people who are in neither of the above categories, but some effort on the player's part has to be included in that.

[Apos]

@Arkandel said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

There are many characters around who literally know all the things

The highest amount of clue discoveries for any character when I last checked a couple days ago was between a quarter and third of this season's clues. Average is a few percent. Second tier (revelations) is more extreme, I think the most anyone has is 3, and I would be surprised if anyone gets a third tier for a long time. Some outliers do know a lot but even the most extreme cases aren't anywhere close to knowing all the things for even immediately relevant plot. Which I know doesn't make it any less frustrating when someone already knows whatever you wanna tell 'em.

[Roz]

@Cupcake said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Arkandel said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I would say at this point in the game there is great urgency based on rank (High Lords have a huge advantage) and soldier ability. The more you stray out of these two niches the least involved you can be in cool things.

I don't know if I agree with this? I can only speak from personal experience, but my character is neither a High Lord nor a combatant. Granted, she is well placed in society and has a lot of ears willing to listen to her, but a lot of my engagement in the game has come from her secrets, the written in desire for social justice of the character, and my own penchant for world building. There are quite a few pursuits to be found for people who are in neither of the above categories, but some effort on the player's part has to be included in that.

My commoner alt is in fact super combatty, but the vast bulk of his engagement with the plot hasn't actually come from that. But he's actually doing a lot more than my noble alt who has far more military power.

[Faceless]

@Roz said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

This this this. I've seen big stoic characters forced to react appropriately in certain GMed scenes because of composure checks.

Likewise I also enjoy seeing those players who take the initiative and just force themselves to make a Composure check. It's not common, but when I do see it I always get a little smile over it. To me it shows maturity and recognition that it's less about winning and more about making for a potentially interesting story with some random, unexpected twists thrown in.

[Roz]

@Faceless said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Roz said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

This this this. I've seen big stoic characters forced to react appropriately in certain GMed scenes because of composure checks.

Likewise I also enjoy seeing those players who take the initiative and just force themselves to make a Composure check. It's not common, but when I do see it I always get a little smile over it. To me it shows maturity and recognition that it's less about winning and more about making for a potentially interesting story with some random, unexpected twists thrown in.

Oh yeah, when players do it of their own accord it's even better! But if people are playing the whole cool cucumber game, it's totally fair to call for a check. (Then again, Unflappable Cool Cucumbers are like one of my least favorite things ever on games. You know the ones I'm talking about: players who never want to lose face at all in any way by being less than Perfectly Cool.)