Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes

[Thenomain]

@Kestrel

Part of my question is: How do G & H know there's anything going on in the Town Square? With Bob's Party I'm presuming you were invited. How would you invite yourself to Town Square?

I ask this in part because you are framing a lot of this as "What Would Happen IC". In trying to help you understand the OOC culture, I'm pointing out that you already are acting on OOC information, which lead you to paging. You engaged in OOC behavior in order to find a scene to play in.

I call this "There Is No Such Thing As Purely IC". That doesn't negate your complaint, but is meant to aim at the argument that the people you wanted to interact with were not being IC, and that's why you feel pushed away. OOC was already engaged; you just skipped a bunch of steps by paging.

So lets keep it IC. You then say that G & H want to go to the Town Square because of a reason they invent, and show up and find out there are people there already. Oh happy day! If they're all busy with their own thing, then you and H pose around with each other some more, trying to negotiate yourselves into the scene.

Maybe people leave because it's IC because they hate G or H, fine. But maybe they leave because they themselves can no longer as a player negotiate the scene. What do you do then? You arrive and the scene breaks down and everyone moves on. This is almost the worst case scenario. Are you still okay with that?

If you are, then you don't page and just show up. You aren't your brother's keeper, and you can figure out how to negotiate into someone's scene a little better next time. This is 100% fine and how we used to do things in Mushes. Doing it this way isn't rude, it's engaging. Using IC to get engagement with scenes and play is okay. If anyone tells you that it's not okay, then it's part of their expectations and they can get over it.

Or as someone else said: Don't take the advice as set in stone. It's all just advice. Try it your way until you learn a new way. You be you.

[Lotherio]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Any rejection H and I experience (e.g., C may ICly say, 'How dare you intrude! Go away!') would not be taken as any kind of affront because IC is IC. It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.

Pages do not come into it.

'Tell' came into it with the example of Bob the ooc friend and him explaining it was dinner. Page is the same thing.

Also, this is a peeve of mine with any RPI RPE MUD. Because I was on-line, I'm accountable for any 'shunning' or ignoring by your character, to your character, from your character. I could of had a RL emergency, I could of came on to check up with a friend in some other part of the country. You said its not an affront, but in the first example, you can approach Bob like he ignored you. A page gets the hand wave part all done too. He was busy, or AFK and doesn't answer.

The clothes and naked came up, on a mush, its understood characters have history and know more about their world than the player knows. They would wear clothes, instead the RP focused MUDs force a player to make up a reason on the spot. MUDs don't suffer from players, they have the leisure to enforce this and let folks leave and ditch the hobby. MUSHes do not have this luxury, they need some civility to attract and retain new players.

And, you go with the villagers here don't like us. Not only where they kind enough to say everyone would split because the scene would be too busy for most of the current players, but now they have to deal with it being an IC shunning to you that they just couldn't work with the scene somehow (too big). Its taking responsibility away from personal courtesy and resolution via page. If this got back to them IC, that you are saying X, Y, and Z don't like you because they couldn't accommodate a scene, they'd ignore outright. Bad, cause as Faraday pointed out, the rain check to play with new players is something most players are honestly good for, instead their dealing with implications that they ICly shun people when it had nothing to do with IC what so ever.

[faraday]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Everyone in a room is expected to involve everyone there, and you cannot really move your character around without ending the RP taking place.

That's not entirely accurate. There are many situations in MUSHing where you have sub-scenes in a room (as discussed in the now-split places code thread) and often a scene that starts in one location will continue in another as players walk from point A to point B.

I think more specifically though, if you ask to join folks in a room, the implication is that you want to play with them, not start your own separate scene. If your characters want to go to the bar ICly, and the bar is OOCly taken up by another scene that can't accept more, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking your scene to a "RP Room" and pretending it's the bar at a different time than the other scene is happening. MUSH time is fluid. As others have said, it's also not a cardinal sin to just go to the bar and take your chances. They are public rooms for a reason. It's not black and white.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel

Part of my question is: How do G & H know there's anything going on in the Town Square? With Bob's Party I'm presuming you were invited. How would you invite yourself to Town Square?

You don't need to be invited to a town square. It's there for people to hang out in. Not approved people. Not You and Your Friends. People. Anyone not being a disruptive dick and/or breaking laws may hang out in a town square.

[Thenomain]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel

Part of my question is: How do G & H know there's anything going on in the Town Square? With Bob's Party I'm presuming you were invited. How would you invite yourself to Town Square?

You don't need to be invited to a town square. It's there for people to hang out in. Not approved people. Not You and Your Friends. People. Anyone not being a disruptive dick and/or breaking laws may hang out in a town square.

But they wanted to engage the scene, not the location in the scene. That is a critical distinction that we've had small arguments in this thread about: You don't own the location just because you're in a scene there. (So yes, re-define my use of 'location' in the quoted section above.)

It also informs my opinion about scening in public: You never have to ask to go somewhere other people are. In fact, I'm going to pull a 180 from the other people in this thread: There is no place with an existing scene that you have to gain express permission to get to. All barriers are other because of IC or out of RESPECT. This is why you must have respect for the game and the players on the game.

The people there maybe would have left because their ability to follow things was too disrupted, but that's also on them, not just on you. Both of you take responsibility for it. Negotiate for it either through OOC means (page) or IC means (getting ignored). The former is explicit social contract, the latter is implied social contract.

Phew, that was a lot of diatribe there.

So yeah, @Kestrel, don't feel like you were pushed away because you weren't. You tried out the explicit social contract negotiation of OOC, and you're not used to it. So try it your way.

[Kanye Qwest]

I think I've upvoted you twice, today. Gross!

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Also, this is a peeve of mine with any RPI RPE MUD. Because I was on-line, I'm accountable for any 'shunning' or ignoring by your character, to your character, from your character.

This also seems to ignore that...it's not a purely IC decision to go to the town square because you see 4 people RPing there on +where. You're making an OOC decision to go where the RP is at. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and I dislike games with limited +where because it creates a hurdle to finding RP. But this is also an OOC calculus, just a different one than 'This scene is too big so I need to ease out of it.'

ETA: I'm really sympathetic to the ease of 'public room = public RP' when you're a newb who doesn't know anyone. That's the environment I came up in and I still finding asking for RP occasionally awkward, though on the whole I prefer the ability to get smaller, more focused scenes. I just don't see this so much as an IC vs. OOC split. I see it as one OOC concern and another OOC concern.

[TNP]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Any rejection H and I experience (e.g., C may ICly say, 'How dare you intrude! Go away!') would not be taken as any kind of affront because IC is IC. It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.

The problem is, the objection to your joining at that time was not in any way IC. You'd have been welcomed. The reasons were purely OOC: the scene would have been too large for some people. It's difficult to keep track of and it also makes scenes longer.

I find it hard to believe that this is never a problem on MUDs.

[Thenomain]

Incidentally, I have all but stopped RPing on Fallcoast because almost every time I try to page someone with "want to rp?" I get "no". Yet when I just show up in scenes, I enjoy myself. Part of my diatribe must be me gathering up the courage to finding scenes the old fashioned way: Seeing who's where and going there and seeing what happens next. Hell, this is how I did things on Haunted Memories, and everyone hated me until they found out I played Vera and I can't tell you how many people told me that I was awesome. And that was only, what, five years ago?

Yeah, I think it's time for us to change it up again.

[Kestrel]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Pages do not come into it.

'Tell' came into it with the example of Bob the ooc friend and him explaining it was dinner. Page is the same thing.

No, totally different. If Bob's telling me OOCly, on a MUD, 'My character can't answer the door right now because I'm at dinner', it does not change the narrative of what's occurring IC, (ETA: Nor determine my ability to RP around it). It lets me know, OOCly, that Bob doesn't hate me and Bob would love to RP with me. But Bob's IC absence remains an IC fact, which I would react to. His IC absence has already become a part of the RP, whereas in a MUSH, the RP simply does not exist.

I think the culture shock I've described is now going both ways. You MUSHers are looking at me like I'm wearing a kilt.

And, you go with the villagers here don't like us. Not only where they kind enough to say everyone would split because the scene would be too busy for most of the current players [...]

These two statements are totally unrelated. In a MUD community, this would be called bad separation of IC and OOC. My character going, 'the villagers here don't like us' in a MUD would have nothing to do with 'but they were really kind to you OOC!' They were. I'm not arguing that. It's just irrelevant to the IC narrative.

@TNP, I'd quote you too, but see above response. And please understand that when I talk about MUD culture, I am not talking about my expectations of MUSH culture.

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel

Part of my question is: How do G & H know there's anything going on in the Town Square? With Bob's Party I'm presuming you were invited. How would you invite yourself to Town Square?

I ask this in part because you are framing a lot of this as "What Would Happen IC". In trying to help you understand the OOC culture, I'm pointing out that you already are acting on OOC information, which lead you to paging. You engaged in OOC behavior in order to find a scene to play in.

@Kanye-Qwest answered this in part. Additionally, many MUDs have commands similar to where, or have IC mechanisms for tracking people down. e.g., mystical scrying, tracking, long-distance IC communication, etc. There are a bunch of ways my character could find out that Bob is at home right now or that people s/he needs to talk to are at the Town Square. And when it comes to places like a town square or local bar which are always crowded, I wouldn't need to check through any of these means anyway, since I would just always know that it's a good place to go and find RP.

@Groth, @faraday, those mentioning place code etc.: Wasn't it said above that these things aren't really used? Because if so that doesn't seem really relevant. I haven't seen them on the MUSH I'm playing, nor a follow command. They could be obscure, I could just be oblivious, idk.

[Lotherio]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I think the culture shock I've described is now going both ways. You MUSHers are looking at me like I'm wearing a kilt.

I play on MUDs, I still play a great early offshoot of Nightmare LP MUD. They are, myself included, trying to point out the differences in culture on a MUSH. I learned this in like 94 when I went from MUD to MUSH.

And, you go with the villagers here don't like us. Not only where they kind enough to say everyone would split because the scene would be too busy for most of the current players [...]

These two statements are totally unrelated. In a MUD community, this would be called bad separation of IC and OOC. My character going, 'the villagers here don't like us' in a MUD would have nothing to do with 'but they were really kind to you OOC!' They were. I'm not arguing that. It's just irrelevant to the IC narrative.

As is assuming you couldn't join the scene for IC reasons alone, when they have no IC reason to not like you. You made the IC narrative on your own, you actually powered for the other players in this case. You made that you were ICly shunned, when they just couldn't manage a large scene.

Edit:

But Bob's IC absence remains an IC fact

You ignored the whole, what if he went AFK for a RL reason, why is it forced on him to explain his absence?

[faraday]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Groth, @faraday, those mentioning place code etc.: Wasn't it said above that these things aren't really used? Because if so that doesn't seem really relevant. I haven't seen them on the MUSH I'm playing, nor a follow command. They could be obscure, I could just be oblivious, idk.

The code to separate scenes isn't really used. However, the concept of having multiple scenes in the same location is definitely A Thing. It's just that without good code to help you out, keeping track of what's going on in one scene versus another is kind of a pain. Here's an example log of a party with about 10 people all doing their own various things in the same room, without places code.

[Kestrel]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

As is assuming you couldn't join the scene for IC reasons alone, when they have no IC reason to not like you. You made the IC narrative on your own, you actually powered for the other players in this case. You made that you were ICly shunned, when they just couldn't manage a large scene.

What? No. What?

I have in no way, shape or form reacted to the incident brought up by @ixokai surrounding the Village Centre 'can I join' page IC. I wouldn't, because the request was OOC, and because this is a MUSH. I am not treating a MUSH as though it were a MUD. If that was my intention, why would I make this thread? I explained, at @Thenomain's request, how the incident would have gone down had it been a MUD.

@faraday: I think I've seen something similar on the MUSH I play. I do kinda wish there was a good way to balance place code in public spaces and dynamic, MUD-style scenes with MUSH-style freeform creativity.

[Lotherio]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

What? No. What?

I have in no way, shape or form reacted to the incident brought up by @ixokai surrounding the Village Centre 'can I join' page IC.

You said 'well the villagers shunned us'.

It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.

This is making IC reason for OOC reason from those players.

[Kestrel]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

What? No. What?

I have in no way, shape or form reacted to the incident brought up by @ixokai surrounding the Village Centre 'can I join' page IC.

You said 'well the villagers shunned us'.

It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.

This is making IC reason for OOC reason from those players.

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

As is assuming you couldn't join the scene for IC reasons alone, when they have no IC reason to not like you. You made the IC narrative on your own, you actually powered for the other players in this case. You made that you were ICly shunned, when they just couldn't manage a large scene.

What? No. What?

I have in no way, shape or form reacted to the incident brought up by @ixokai surrounding the Village Centre 'can I join' page IC. I wouldn't, because the request was OOC, and because this is a MUSH. I am not treating a MUSH as though it were a MUD. If that was my intention, why would I make this thread? I explained, at @Thenomain's request, how the incident would have gone down had it been a MUD.

Because it bears repeating, apparently:

I explained, at @Thenomain's request, how the incident would have gone down had it been a MUD.**

had it been a MUD.

You may want to reread my posts in the relevant context. I don't really know how to make my intentions here clearer to you. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[Thenomain]

@Kestrel

We are trying to both help you understand and understand ourselves how the culture works. What, you thought we knew? A lot of us are arguing with ourselves and around you.

It now sounds like the sour taste in your mouth is that you didn't have the opportunity to have that scene collapse ICly.

To which I am going to tell you again: Then next time collapse it ICly, just maintain respect for the game and its players.

Sheesh.

[Ominous]

There has been so much activity on here since I last posted, that I can't quote and respond to every single piece. Instead, I am going to give you a broad summary of my thinking on this.

Places code is awesome, every MU* should have it, and every player should use it. Every MU* I have played for longer than six months has used this code and the playerbase has used it extensively. I am surprised to read that there are playerbases that do not use it. Frankly, I am to the point that I can't live without it. It is essential for managing those big scenes and when 8 people show up because you're in a public with 4 other people.

OOC Bob says: "Hello! Our table is full, so we won't be able to invite you over." I am OK with someone telling me that when I enter a public. I love being background noise for a scene. I suggested that NPCs be added to Firan's roster so people could grab one for an evening and play a minstrel in a bar or a demagogue screaming in the streets. Background shit is great for creating atmosphere, and having someone who is fine alting background noise in one window while doing some RP with their main in another is freaking fantastic. More people should do this.

[Ominous]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Groth, @faraday, those mentioning place code etc.: Wasn't it said above that these things aren't really used? Because if so that doesn't seem really relevant. I haven't seen them on the MUSH I'm playing, nor a follow command. They could be obscure, I could just be oblivious, idk.

Follow code is on The 100. "Follow <player>" Places code is not from what I have seen.

[Thenomain]

@Ominous

http://musoapbox.net/topic/1062/better-places-code/

Now You Know.

[TNP]

@Kestrel

Ok, let me try. No one's saying that's what you did nor what you would have done, because you're on a MUSH. You were saying what you could have done on a MUD. To which a number of people are saying: No, wait. We wouldn't like that no matter where it happened. Because of the reason @Lotherio gave.