Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes

[ThatGuyThere]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

a social construct that makes no sense. It's inefficient. It's a waste of time.

Social contracts are rarely about efficiency, they tend to be the result of years and years or reactions to things that happen then counter reactions.
The asking to join the scene one or the principle or respecting the scene in place is a direct outgrowth of people being pissed off as a result of others completely shitting on scenes in progress.
There was a time when the asking would have been seen as odd at least in the WoD corner of things. But those were also the wild west days of Sabbat walking into the bar and horrid forming for no reason but boredom to create combat or a Brujah just deciding hey lets create chaos or Garou of both Gaian and Wyrm allegiance doing the same thing. Of hell in some places just a mortal who got his hands on a gun. (Usually at this time the gun had to be a coded object for people to actually go with it being there. ) This was a normal hazard to playing in public, and I personally saw it happen on three separate games. Heck to some extent it still happens to this day on WoD games. On CoH about a year ago I was in a scene and two folks decided to come in a start a fight because "we decided you must be bored and decided to spice things up for you." They got upset and stormed off when I told them we would wait for staff to arrive cause my spirit mage was going to be doing spirit mage-y shit.
Now most people agree there should be consequences for IC action and those folks usually got greased but there were also folks that lost characters for simply RPing in the wrong hangout. This lead to the reaction of creating etiquette for what is and is not proper for joining public scenes.
Now those days are long in the past but a fair number of the mushers from those days are still around so still carry the baggage from those areas.

[Thenomain]

@ThatGuyThere

The asking to join the scene one or the principle or respecting the scene in place is a direct outgrowth of people being pissed off as a result of others completely shitting on scenes in progress.

This. Yes, the social contract is inefficient, @Kestrel, but it works when there is no adjudication in place, no staff on hand to control the scene, no code to say what is right and wrong. I've head some of us mushers occasionally claim the idea "because I can, it's okay". Someone left their character object open for teleportation so I can jump to them, their fault if they didn't turn it off. I'm staff so I can act on any information available to me, too bad if you think otherwise. I can see where you are on the game so I'm going to tell my buddies who are looking to beat you up too bad for you. All lot these are real examples.

There are many reasons to ask, as people have said, but I'll give you a secret:

If you think you're not going to be a jerk, it's just as okay to not ask.

It is a public part of the grid, after all. Check in, say hey, make friends, scoff at the beer selection, have short scenes or long scenes, pose having an enjoyable walk in the park, mix it up for you and for them.

I mostly ask so I know that I won't be sitting there posing to myself. If your okay putting on a short show, then don't let that stop you.

Remember, a Mush is mainly about a game-space for role-playing. The play's the thing. If what you decide to do respects this, and on the whole respects the other people who have the similar aim, you're probably alright.

[Kestrel]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

[...] people being disruptive for the hell of it - you know, the guy who runs in and collapses in a bloody heap at a table of strangers just trying to have coffee.

Dealing with snowflakes is a different discussion than courtesy of asking to join a scene.

Oh man. Relatable. The good thing to know about snowflakes though is that they aren't even special to MUSHes.

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Exactly why folks are saying it helps to ask first?

No, people are saying its polite to ask first, thus implying entitlement and control over a grid space, and the right to tell you no. That it might be smart to ask first isn't something I'd argue against. I sometimes do, I often don't, but again I'm willing to live with the consequences, which might be Vampire X and Vampire Y looking at me, looking at each other, then leaving for a more private location.

3 posts and that was that scene. Yet.. it was still a form of interaction.

Circular logic. Polite to ask first is wrong, smart to ask first is right.

It's not circular. @lordbelh (and @Groth, a page or so up) has explained how a person entering a scene might benefit from asking first and thus learn pertinent information that would affect how they ought to approach. So there is a practical reason to do so other than it being a sort of curtsey.

Others in this thread are making it clear that asking is some kind of weird social dance to determine whether or not the other person is an arsehole. ( @ixokai, I was referring to this post, namely.) This, to me, is arseholish. I agree with those who have said that it smacks of entitlement. It's about wanting to be given arbitrary respect, not offering respect to those who need it, e.g., that they might be helped to better integrate into a scene, or so that they know they ought to feel welcome. This is just semantics, and doesn't amount to much, but I think the way people phrase their expectations and why they have them matters.

It's kind of like if you're in a fight with someone and they snap at you, "Aren't you going to apologise to me?" Even if you should have, it's just uncool to make that demand, and is usually about one person wanting to hold court over the situation.

Speaking for myself, I don't really like making anyone feel like they need to ask for my permission to join in and have fun. I feel awkward when people needlessly apologise to me for intruding on a scene. I think a more welcoming environment would be one where public places are considered genuinely public, but I understand the counter-arguments being made, which is why I don't have a perfect solution. I just think it's worth considering how these social constructs (which apparently bear the weight of decades of history) translate into the kind of environment they foster.

[hedgehog]

I've experienced an odd twist on this, where people have come into the shop my character owns, a public on-grid hangout, while he was there, and then completely ignored him. I mean, I get it - in real life we don't necessarily talk to the guy who owns the record store (unless he's also the one staffing it) but due to the nature of the MU* beast, it's pretty dickish.

At the same time, however, I have learned of the joy of puppets, and if I want to be elsewhere, or am not in the mood to pose ':stands at the counter, going through paperwork while potential customers mill about the store, doing their own thing.' a bunch because I know that the people hanging out are going to just keep to themselves? My character ducks out the back door and lets his employee run things.

[Lotherio]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Circular logic. Polite to ask first is wrong, smart to ask first is right.

It's not circular. @lordbelh (and @Groth, a page or so up) has explained how a person entering a scene might benefit from asking first and thus learn pertinent information that would affect how they ought to approach. So there is a practical reason to do so other than it being a sort of curtsey.
Others in this thread are making it clear that asking is some kind of weird social dance to determine whether or not the other person is an arsehole.

Circular because its smart to ask first to avoid craziness, but politeness has nothing to do with it? If its smart to ask first to, how is it not polite?

Also, I'm not arguing anyone should be entitled, that was like 15 responses ago. It seems everyone is, in fact, agreeing those sorts are assholes. But the argument after entitlement, and my stance, is its still polite to ask because there are reasons other than eliteness and pettiness for why folks may not be able to handle just one more player in a scene. I have said nothing about entitlement to own a room or to disclude anyone from RP. I have said if they’re hogging up public you can ask them for the room or remind them to take closed scenes private. Manners still help.

Thanks for ignoring my other comments.

Speaking for myself, I don't really like making anyone feel like they need to ask for my permission to join in and have fun. I feel awkward when people needlessly apologise to me for intruding on a scene. I think a more welcoming environment would be one where public places are considered genuinely public

My point has been people want to meet new people in public but cannot handle big scenes. Its just as rude to force them to bow out of a scene, because they are polite and will say nothing. It takes two seconds to write five words in page or OOC to get over the hurdles. Assholes assume entitlement to public places. Just like assuming joining a big scene makes everyone feel comfortable. You feel awkward with all the OOC, others feel awkward without it. I think some of us are saying we all need to be adult and consider everyone’s awkward feelings in the shared environment.

Here is a good article on how to get along with each other: http://wadewilson.livejournal.com/11285.html (old school, its live journal, Wade Wilson’s Internet Drama and You). TL;DR – to avoid coming off like an ass, try communicating with other players.

[ixokai]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Others in this thread are making it clear that asking is some kind of weird social dance to determine whether or not the other person is an arsehole. ( @ixokai, I was referring to this post, namely.)

Be careful with giving too much credit to one person's response. I don't in any way agree with him and I know a lot of people who don't, either. If you're going to ask, respect a no, otherwise, why are you asking? If you're trying to litmus test for dickness like that, then all you're doing is proving you, yourself, are a dick.

[faraday]

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

It's pretty asinine, from an outsider's perspective, because it's totally unnecessary by the admission of everyone on this thread who's explained why it's necessary.

I responded and I didn't admit, in any way shape or form, that it was unnecessary. I said it was a courtesy, not a rule. Courtesy is how life among different people is kept oiled and moving smoothly

Exactly. Courtesy is never "necessary", and nor is everyone ever going to agree on what constitutes courteous behavior. There are those who will get offended if you hold the door for them. There are those who will get offended if you don't hold the door for them. Few would argue it's necessary to ever hold the door for anyone. That does not make it "asinine" to suggest that holding the door is commonly considered a polite thing to do.

@ixokai also said:

If you're trying to litmus test for dickness like that, then all you're doing is proving you, yourself, are a dick.

Yeah, I don't ask because I'm testing to see if the other people are going to tell me 'no'. I ask because I honestly am not interested in RPing where I am not welcome. I'm giving them the no-offense-taken opportunity to say 'no' if my character doesn't fit in their scene for some good reason. I think it's polite to do this. Everyone else is entitled to disagree.

I also think it's polite to try to work people in when they ask, as per the second bullet. But there are legitimate situations where that's hard/awkward/impossible.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I also think it's polite to try to work people in when they ask, as per the second bullet. But there are legitimate situations where that's hard/awkward/impossible.

These also usually aren't scenes I want to join. If two people are having a intensely personal conversation in a public space, sure I could RP with them. But my experience with those scenes is they tend to become really banal and not about anything, and I usually feel I'd have been better off just starting my own thing. I would always be better off starting my own thing than trying to parse a scene that 8 people have piled on.

[surreality]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I think some of us are saying we all need to be adult and consider everyone’s awkward feelings in the shared environment.

Quoted for truth.

On some level, this is a 'playground rules' issue to me.

Two kids are playing with a ball at recess. A third would like to play, too.

It's great when the first two see the third approaching and say, "Hey, wanna play with us?"

It's great when the third asks, "Hey, can I play, too?"

It's not great when the first two ignore the third.

It's not great when the third runs up and grabs the ball from the first two and forcibly starts a different kind of ball game.

This is not complicated unless the first two are playing a one-on-one that's necessarily one-on-one, in which case you have the following options that don't involve being not great:

• Table the one on one for later and start a new game that involves more than two people.

• Be politely proactive and let the third party know you're playing a one-on-one game right now that's important to you, and would like the chance to finish up before adding new players.

Ultimately, these are the two options.

Yes, the first pair can leave the public space to continue their scene privately, but this isn't as relevant as it may initially appear, because it still leaves the third party alone in the public space. Unless there's more than one wishing to join or there are others heading in, the third person is no better off if this happens than if they step out on their own.

We learned this in kindergarten, didn't we?

[Ganymede]

@surreality said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

We learned this in kindergarten, didn't we?

I learned it in the bedroom. It's much more fun when the first two invite you to play.

[Groth]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I don't understand why it's polite to expect people to ask your permission to pose themselves into a public room. In my opinion, it's not polite to assume that, by virtue of being in a public room, your RP is the dominant and possessive RP in that room.

That's not how politeness works. Politeness is the actions you take, not the actions you expect from others. It's not polite to expect someone to hold open the door, it's not polite to expect others to wait until everyone has food before eating, it's not polite to expect people to give up their seats if you're in more need etc.

It is however polite to hold open the door if you're the first to the door. It is polite to wait to eat until everyone has their food, it is polite to give up your seat if someone needs it more then you.

It's polite to ask to join a scene that's not obviously public (Such as Elysium scenes). It's polite to do your best to integrate anyone that comes by into your scene.

[acceleration]

RP MUDs are 100% IC all the time. If your PC is in a certain location, they are considered to actually be in that location barring logoff time and therefore doing the OOC 'hey can I join' dance is unnecessary. This is beneficial in that it's much easier to jump in and play with people you don't know and experience a wide range of RP styles. It is also detrimental in that it's much easier to jump in and play with people you don't know and experience a wide range of RP styles.

RP MUSHes are 50/50 IC/OOC (or some variation of that percentage) and therefore it's expected by a large percentage of MUSHers that you ask before you join. I've never had anyone say 'no, you can't join this scene' unless it was an event I was late trying to get in on. MUSHers are, in my experience, pretty polite and welcoming OOCly and prioritize OOC friendliness. This may translate to pulling punches ICly or changing their IC playstyle to preserve OOC harmony. It also translates to expecting players to ask before joining scenes.

There is probably some major MUD/MUSH culture shock going on for OP right now, but really in MUSHes it's pretty much about finding who you're comfortable with. In a MUSH, embrace the clique, because cliques are basically people who have 'self-selected' (as we're apparently calling it in this thread) to play with other people who have similar comfort zones/playstyles. MUSHes have hugely varying playstyles not only MUSH to MUSH but with internal groups as well. This is something that's pretty hard to wrap your head around if you're going from RPI > RP MUSH, but don't overthink it.

[Thenomain]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

TL;DR – to avoid coming off like an ass, try communicating with other players

Another "this". I'm afraid that we are getting mired down in definitions that have more than one connotation, which is the "cultural differences" thing that we've been trying to address from the start.

Respect & understand. All these games are based on social interactions. Communicating is one great way to do this, but isn't the only way. Hell, if there's no need to communicate you can stick to "being IC" and roll with it. There is, again, absolutely nothing wrong with this, as long as you know when to step out of the role and address the players.

Maybe that's why a lot of us gravitate toward WoD. Yeah, it's wish fulfillment at its highest (trumped only by superhero games), but it also has drilled in the Golden Rule of White Wolf: If you don't need a rule, don't use it. Mushes evolved from Pure RP environments. Most people who wanted code-heavy systems went immediately to, well, a real code system (MUD is based on C). The casuals stuck it out with Mush.

On the whole, Mush for Role-Play First, and Mud for Game First. We all need to remember that the full name of what we do is "Role-Playing Game". Nothing is perfect, here, but here we are, bouncing between the two.

Ta.

[Arkandel]

@acceleration Don't over-generalize though. That's a setting, not the only setting.

For instance on the MUD I played we had an +IC command; you could always go IC any time but you had to stay IC for <X> minutes after switching before you could +OOC again.

While you were OOC you could be anywhere on the grid to fight mobs, hang out, anything at all you liked - but you couldn't see poses and other IC messages, so you couldn't spy on people. There were also IC-only rooms you couldn't enter but those were also set as !mob so you didn't lose anything.

[acceleration]

@Arkandel
There are exceptions, but they're not really relevant to OP. Yes, MU*s are super niche and everything has its own culture, but RP MUDs (RPIs, mostly) have their own general corner and as a rule are 100% IC. Any construct that defines IC vs OOC areas outside of (maybe) a newbie channel wouldn't be lumped together with those. For the sake of simplicity, I'm comparing two opposite ends of the RP market. If you want to go down the spectrum, have at.

[Arkandel]

@acceleration I just re-read the original post on this thread and it mentions nothing about RPIs. I was discussing the spectrum because it seems relevant when we're examining cultural differences between two kinds of games which, on occasion, are pretty similar to each other in function if not terminology. The point doesn't seem to be straying from the thread's topic.

[ixokai]

This scenario just happened a moment ago and was relevant (lol, I wonder how many of you are in the scene or on the game and having this conversation simultaneously):

A pages B, C, D, E, and F: Room for another? Wanted to check before just joining!

<OOC> E is okay with it.
<OOC> C says, "I'm fine with it as well."
<OOC> B is having a hard enough time keeping up with you four "But I am willing to pose out and A to come in since I think E has accomplished what he wants with me in this scene.
<OOC> E says, "That's okay. If it's too big for you, we can just say so."
<OOC> C says, "Well I was actually hoping for a nap, so I can pose out next round and she can take my place instead."
<OOC> E says, "Up to you, C. Can always ask her for a raincheck."
<OOC> D says, "I can handle one more but after that I'll have to flee"
<OOC> C says, "Eh, sleep seems real nice right about now, so I'll pose out next round and she can take my place."

You(D) paged A, B, C, E, and F with 'Sure, come along over.'

A arrives from the Apple Orchard.
A has arrived.

G pages F, C, E, D, and B: Hi, room for two more at the Village Centre?

<OOC> D laughs
<OOC> E says, "Now that's too big for me as well."
<OOC> C says, "Heyo, A! I'll be posing out this round, so you'll be taking my spot."
<OOC> A thumbs up.

You(D) paged G, F, C, E, D, and B with 'We you but half of us would have to bail then because the scene's just about its limit for our available attention right now.'
G pages F, C, E, D, and B: No worries.

Did A or G have to page? No. But had they not, three people would have joined the scene, and multiple people would have left. The end result would be a different scene. Is that good or bad? What if A or G wanted to RP with someone who was going to leave due to overcrowding and attention-limits? Or, what if the existing scene just basically ends as a result of the people coming in, at which point A, G and the remainders are basically starting a new scene? At that point, is there really any value for anyone's fun if that new scene just gets started in another place? Does place really matter?

(And should B, C, D, E and F decided to take their scene private? Then A and G wouldn't be able to join them either. Is that a better outcome?)

[Arkandel]

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Did A or G have to page?

<snip>

(And should B, C, D, E and F decided to take their scene private? Then A and G wouldn't be able to join them either. Is that a better outcome?)

Obviously neither scenario is optimal at that point. But here is the thing, and now you're probably exposed to a peeve of mine rather than an actual argument:

Group 1 is roleplaying. X+Y+Z want to drop in so they have something to do.

... why on earth won't X+Y+Z, who are idlying and not part of any scene, for whom any scene would do, go off and make a scene of their own? Why does it need to be the one already in progress? Just start something, you have enough people!

[surreality]

@Arkandel I'm with you on it being a peeve, but I can empathize a little.

A scene in progress has momentum already; starting one can take a shred more oomph or sometimes the inevitable and dreaded:

"What do you want to do?"
"I dunno, what do you want to do?"
"Anything's fine."
"Anybody got any ideas?"
<silence>

[Kanye Qwest]

@Arkandel

If they'd all just shown up in a public space to rp, maybe they would!

Honestly, I don't even know what points are left to make here. Some people seem to think politeness demands you ask permission OOC before even posing into an open, public room (which I am vehemently opposed to). Some people seem to think you should ask permission OOC before butting in to someone's /scene/ specifically. As in, not to pose in to the bar but to pose sitting down at your table and joining - which is common sense, but could also be done IC.

"May I join you" is absolutely a phrase I have uttered in real life.