Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes
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@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
What constitutes sensitive/private IC information on a MUSH other than TS?
The same sorts of secrets you might want to keep to yourself in RL. Confessing a crush on someone, plotting revenge, committing a crime, revealing you're a Vampire or a member of a secret organization, planning a surprise party, or - yes - TS. I've heard the phrase "OOC Masquerade" as @Lotherio mentioned, but the idea is pretty common even on games that don't have heavy PvP aspects.
I had my character react a certain way to something they found off-putting, for very IC reasons (though I found it great) — and received an OOC apology for the off-putting behaviour, with a clarification that it wasn't intended to be off-putting. Is this normal?
It's quite common. There are those out there who will assume "if you're playing a jerk, you must be a jerk", or "if you're being a jerk to me, you must not like me". I wouldn't say they're the majority, but they're common enough that folks will often make the sort of clarification you're alluding to - just in case.
So I ask, 'How widespread is kilt-wearing in Scotland? Will I be looked at funny there if I don't wear a kilt?'
Except I think it's more like "How widespread is kilt-wearing in Europe?" To which the answer is: "You'll probably be okay in Scotland, not be too out of place in the rest of the UK, and get really strange looks in Germany..."
MUSHes are astonishingly diverse. For instance, a lot of the players on this board mostly play WoD games. I've never played one, and routinely feel "Is that really a thing?!?" type culture shock when participating in discussions here. And I've been MUSHing for 20 years.
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@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
A certain subset of mushers are extremely conflict averse. Since I'm not, I expect I tend to attract other players who aren't, while putting off those who are.
And it's also sometimes tricky to tell who's conflict averse and who's not, or who's OK with conflict among players they know and who just wants to avoid it altogether. Because players who want to OOCly avoid this stuff don't necessarily play PCs who're un-wonky or super-easy to get on with ICly. I don't know that there's much you can do about this other than try and be polite once you're aware of what someone's OOC comfort level is, and self-select out if you really aren't compatible.
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@Three-Eyed-Crow said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
A certain subset of mushers are extremely conflict averse. Since I'm not, I expect I tend to attract other players who aren't, while putting off those who are.
players who want to OOCly avoid this [conflict] stuff don't necessarily play PCs who're un-wonky or super-easy to get on with ICly.
This boggles the mind, really. Surely if one doesn't want to participate in IC yelling matches, they shouldn't play a character prone to yelling. But I know exactly what you mean, and I've seen that this isn't, apparently, common sense.
All the advice I've seen so far on this thread is really helpful. Thanks all.
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Let me first define "metaposing" as I mean it, as its something defined by people as different things.
Metaposing is the stuff that doesn't happen between quotes, and which does not describe a characters actions, appearance, or other overt outward displays.
You linked to my random bitch and said its about different in metaposing etiquette, but I disagree: my bitch was about powerposing, IMHO. Powerposing and metaposing are different. Powerposing is about writing about another character in such a way as their player's ability to choose their reactions is taken away.
Powerposing is NEVER OKAY. Never. Under any circumstances.
Metaposing is okay, in a limited degree, provided its about your own character or entertaining in general. It is NOT okay if its used as a vehicle to insert OOC commentary about other characters that those characters do not have an IC means to interpret and thus react to.
A certain amount of metaposing adds to atmosphere and entertainment, and as long as its not wielded against other characters, its fine. However, when its used to snark them and get in a comment that can't be responded to IC, its unfair and not okay.
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@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Powerposing is NEVER OKAY. Never. Under any circumstances.
Let me change that to 'Powerposing /without permission/ is not okay.' Sometimes in a scene I will ask 'hey, can I powerpose for a sec here' usually with a hint of what I want to do, or I am simply in a scene with someone I know well and I know where the boundaries are. Sometimes a bit of a powerpose will smooth things along rather than going back and forth 4 more times, and save another half hour of RP, so you can move things along.
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@Wretched said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Powerposing is NEVER OKAY. Never. Under any circumstances.
Let me change that to 'Powerposing /without permission/ is not okay.' Sometimes in a scene I will ask 'hey, can I powerpose for a sec here' usually with a hint of what I want to do, or I am simply in a scene with someone I know well and I know where the boundaries are. Sometimes a bit of a powerpose will smooth things along rather than going back and forth 4 more times, and save another half hour of RP, so you can move things along.
That's, IMHO, by definition, not powerposing. You've got permission. The essential component of powerposing is you are removing the ability of another player to decide their character's actions and reactions.
By asking permission out of band, you are not removing their ability to decide. You've simply used a different channel to make sure they have made the decision of their character's response.
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@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
This boggles the mind, really. Surely if one doesn't want to participate in IC yelling matches, they shouldn't play a character prone to yelling. But I know exactly what you mean, and I've seen that this isn't, apparently, common sense.
I think sometimes players just misjudge how people are going to react to their character. Which I'm sympathetic to up to a point and then...less so. I really and truly try to be courteous if someone lets me know something they did came across radically different than they intended, but it's tough sometimes. And this probably is something that's a bigger issue on MUSHes because, as @Lotherio said, your interactions with other players are so much of the game play. I don't know that this has an answer except, "These are social games and social interaction is occasionally hard, so do your best to deal with the inevitable issues that arise." Which is not great advice, but it's the best I've managed. Minimizing OOC interaction helps with some of these problems, but creates others and isn't a way I like to engage with a game. Mileage varies a lot on this, though.
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@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Let me first define "metaposing" as I mean it, as its something defined by people as different things.
Metaposing is the stuff that doesn't happen between quotes, and which does not describe a characters actions, appearance, or other overt outward displays.
You linked to my random bitch and said its about different in metaposing etiquette, but I disagree: my bitch was about powerposing, IMHO. Powerposing and metaposing are different. Powerposing is about writing about another character in such a way as their player's ability to choose their reactions is taken away.
Powerposing is NEVER OKAY. Never. Under any circumstances.
Metaposing is okay, in a limited degree, provided its about your own character or entertaining in general. It is NOT okay if its used as a vehicle to insert OOC commentary about other characters that those characters do not have an IC means to interpret and thus react to.
A certain amount of metaposing adds to atmosphere and entertainment, and as long as its not wielded against other characters, its fine. However, when its used to snark them and get in a comment that can't be responded to IC, its unfair and not okay.
So here's what I inferred from your post and the others that followed it. This is OK for me to metapose:
Kestrel is one cocky motherfucker. "I bet I can climb this wall in two seconds flat," she says with a smirk, stepping on up to the wall in question. There is no way she can climb that wall — look how short her stubby legs are.
This is not OK for me to metapose:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are.
And so, with both of these examples of metapose, one is OK because it's my character I'm writing about, and the other is not because it's about yours and is a powerposing (or godmoding, as MUDers where I come from would call it) metapose. I inferred that it's the combination of the two that becomes a problem.
y/n?
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@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
This is not OK for me to metapose:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are.
I can't speak for @ixokai, but this sort of meta is acceptable. What he is referring to would be:
Okay: @Kestrel looks at @ixokai , that cocky mother fucker, he steps up to try and punch him in the jaw.
Not Okay: @Kestrel looks at @ixokai , that cocky mother fucker, he steps up to try and punch him in the jaw, landing one straight on his face and dropping him like a sack of potatoes..
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@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
So far this is probably the biggest source of MUSH-related culture-shock for me, I think. I had my character react a certain way to something they found off-putting, for very IC reasons (though I found it great) — and received an OOC apology for the off-putting behaviour, with a clarification that it wasn't intended to be off-putting. Is this normal? Do many MUSHers have an aversion to conflict-based RP, and/or take the stance that character behaviours should be altered to cater to harmony with other characters? I mean beyond the basic, 'we need an excuse to stay in a scene together'.
I think there is a certain segment of the population who has an aversion to conflict RP, but there's a larger segment who has been playing in this medium for decades and carries baggage with them. We've all gone through intense bouts of angst and drama OOCly, and we all have developed triggers.
Some of this baggage involves people who do not properly respect the IC/OOC boundaries, and who take something bad happening IC as a personal affront OOC. Over time we have grown habits to try to mitigate this, and one such habit (I have it) is to go out of my way to express that the conflict is purely IC.
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I don't see the latter as an offensive metapose. If it had been something like the following:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are. She is just so fed up with this guy, what with all the trouble he's caused her for the last week, she's cried herself to sleep every night. Why does he have to be so mean to her when no one's around? She can't wait until he falls off so that he knows how stupid he is.. "Go for it!" she says.
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@mietze said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
I don't see the latter as an offensive metapose. If it had been something like the following:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are. She is just so fed up with this guy, what with all the trouble he's caused her for the last week, she's cried herself to sleep every night. Why does he have to be so mean to her when no one's around? She can't wait until he falls off so that he knows how stupid he is.. "Go for it!" she says.
Oh, holy shit. I haven't come across that yet. When I do, I will run in the other direction.
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Or:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are. When she sees him do this, her heart breaks, that's what happens when you see people do things you can't do any longer, that terrible accident from a few years ago stole her chances of ever doing parkour again, and now she's tragically sad and will need a beer after this. It's little wonder that she frowns at him and snaps, "You're such a dick." That's what happens when someone reminds her of what she lost.
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I mean to some degree, this shit is unintentionally funny. A lot of the time I can laugh it off, because it's so fucking eyerollerly. But most of the time it just makes me want to avoid that person or totally ignore them or just walk away from the scene, since usually that gets the ball rolling for a lot of "IC" posed ooc snark. And these days nothing kills my enjoyment like that, and just ooc hostility.
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@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
So here's what I inferred from your post and the others that followed it. This is OK for me to metapose:
Kestrel is one cocky motherfucker. "I bet I can climb this wall in two seconds flat," she says with a smirk, stepping on up to the wall in question. There is no way she can climb that wall — look how short her stubby legs are.
This is totally okay.
This is not OK for me to metapose:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are.
This ... approaches the line. It doesn't quite cross it. The fact that you included the details of the baffled expression lets me infer that you're thinking something along the line sof "ixokai is one cocky motherfucker", as say, body language. Non-verbal communication. I can take this pose, turn, and say, "Fuck you, I can do it."
The comment about his legs is, if its based on any factual description of the character, also approaching the line but not crossing it.
Overall, its fine.
What's not fine is this:
Ixokai glances at Kestrel and says idly, "I bet I can climb this wall in two seconds flat." That dumbass wouldn't be stupid enough to take the bet.
Its a bit of a silly example because I suck at examples, but the point is, that last comment? Is totally impossible to respond to. Its pure OOC commentary inserted into the pose which is attacking another character.
And so, with both of these examples of metapose, one is OK because it's my character I'm writing about, and the other is not because it's about yours and is a powerposing (or godmoding, as MUDers where I come from would call it) metapose. I inferred that it's the combination of the two that becomes a problem.
The "writing about myself" exception to "metaposing is bad" comes down to the idea that its always OK to not take yourself OOCly too seriously, even if your character is very very serious, and making fun of your character is always fun for everyone.
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@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
This is not OK for me to metapose:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are.
I can't speak for @ixokai, but this sort of meta is acceptable. What he is referring to would be:
Okay: @Kestrel looks at @ixokai , that cocky mother fucker, he steps up to try and punch him in the jaw.
Not Okay: @Kestrel looks at @ixokai , that cocky mother fucker, he steps up to try and punch him in the jaw, landing one straight on his face and dropping him like a sack of potatoes..
This Not Okay is not okay, but not because its a metapose. That's a powerpose. Metapose inserts "meta" commentary, stuff that can not be inferred from words, body language, etc; its meta. Powerpose takes the power away from the character's player to decide what their character is doing.
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@mietze I, however, do see the last sentence of the latter as a variety of metaposing that would turn me off from the person playing if I don't know them. To me, this is the definition of passive-aggressive metaposing. You're effectively insulting the other character with no way for the player to reasonably respond.
It comes down to trust and comfort. There are people that can powerpose any of my characters at any time or metapose freely. However, I don't think it's good etiquette to do so upon first meeting or before permission to do so has been granted.
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I would be okay with that second meta pose but a lot of people would bristle at it. It's entertaining and probably accurate. If you had posed how you thought he was a jerk but would never say so out loud, you are denying the other player retort to an insult. That is not okay.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
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@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
because its a metapose. That's a powerpose. Metapose inserts "meta" commentary, stuff that can not be inferred from words, body language, etc; its meta. Powerpose takes the power away from the character's player to decide what their character is doing.
Yeah, I think some folks have conflicting definitions. There is no universal dictionary for this sort of thing.
My definitions are in line with yours:
Faraday rushes across the room, engulfing ixokai in a giant hug and spinning them around. "ixokai! Old buddy, old pal!"
Here I'm power-posing because I'm assuming that you let me hug you and spinning you. I wouldn't count that as a metapose. Here's a (silly) metapose:
Faraday forces a smile after ixokai's greeting. "I'm fine. How are you?" Fine? Yeah, right. She'd cried herself to sleep every night this week because her dog died.
Some metaposing can add atmosphere and convey emotions you might not be able to describe very well. But it's easy to get carried away, and it doesn't have to be a passive-aggressive dig to get eyes rolling.
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@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
because its a metapose. That's a powerpose. Metapose inserts "meta" commentary, stuff that can not be inferred from words, body language, etc; its meta. Powerpose takes the power away from the character's player to decide what their character is doing.
Yeah, I think some folks have conflicting definitions. There is no universal dictionary for this sort of thing.
My definitions are in line with yours:
Faraday rushes across the room, engulfing ixokai in a giant hug and spinning them around. "ixokai! Old buddy, old pal!"
Here I'm power-posing because I'm assuming that you let me hug you and spinning you. I wouldn't count that as a metapose. Here's a (silly) metapose:
I usually try to put 'attempts' into my powerposes so that the other person is free to pose dodging or whatever when it's their turn.
