How Many Alts Would An Alt User Alt If An Alt User Could Use Alts

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said in Fallen World MUX!:

Ah, but now we're getting into the 'a good player won't have a problem with that' argument. You know better than to create a character you're not excited about but others would, and have; I've had people come to me in the past a few short weeks into a PC going 'well, I was told/promised by that pack/coterie they needed this but I never see them and now there's no point in it, I just wanted to play it for them'. This is a thing that happens!

Oh, sure. But I was talking about asking STAFF that question. Never ask PLAYERS that question. Rule One of MU*s is that players are flaky as hell, and you should never, ever make a PC that depends on another PC being around or interacting with you in order to remain viable. But directing that question towards staff should get a useful response. Even something like, "Right now, it's pretty open for a lot of concepts and characters. This game is oriented towards investigating Mysteries in an urban setting, so it's going to be easiest to get involved with characters who are high on the Mental skills, and now that I think about it, we could really use a dedicated technowizard or three for stuff that's in the works." That's a response that tells me that staff is open to diverse concepts, knows what their game is about and what sort of play they're angling for, AND has plots and events in the works that are fun to get involved with.

To get back to the matter of alts though, my one issue with them (past the ever-existent one where people in my scene are taking forever to pose because they're playing three of them at once and argh) is that more or less the same group, rather than just one player, can monopolise +events. By showing up for them (which isn't difficult, especially if they are being ran by the same ST) they take up 'spots' that could have gone to legitimately disconnected, idle players looking for something to do, which is a tricky thing to fix without extensive hardcoding or strict policies. That's because it's far easier to +event/signup and be online at 20:30ET than to show up on the grid with your third alt consistently enough to have a strong presence.

On this, though, we agree entirely. And I wish more STs were willing to say, "Hey, I'd like to give other people a chance to get involved with plots. Please don't sign up for this one unless you haven't been in an ST'd scene in a week or two - if we get up to time, and all the slots aren't filled, then I'll put out an open call."

[ThatGuyThere]

@Pyrephox said in Fallen World MUX!:

And about "whatever you'll enjoy" is just flat, flat wrong. Terribly wrong. I weep for the wrongness of it. It's one of the things that will flat out make me walk away from a game, because it says to me that staff has no idea what kind of game they're actually running, no coherent theme, and no interest in drawing new players into the game in interesting, fun ways.

I agree with this. the answer of play what you want gets me to walk every time. Because rarely is the actual question what is needed. Yes those are the words used, but has humans we do not always express questions in in form to match substance. I always see and have used What is needed? as more of a What kinds of things am I likely to be able to integrate into things easily/quickly. It also is a question to out what types of characters exist for determining good characters concepts to add to the mix. Whatever you want tells me nothing. If I was just going to play what i wanted with out wanting/needing more info I would already be in c-gen.
to use the example Sunny mentioned about Nossie cops, I would prefer an answer along the lings of there are a lot of Nossie cops for example, that means unless I am really set on a Nossie cop I will likely go with a different, and if I was really set on a Nossie cop then I wouldn't have asked in the first place. One upside of telling me there is a lot of Nossie cops is that while I might not want to make yet another one, instead I would think hey lets think of ideas that would have reasons to interact with them.

Edit to Add: @Pyrephox
I loved you example answer to the question that is exactly the type of answer I would want when asking "What should I play?"

[Sunny]

Much like in the real world, people who ask questions that are not what they mean cannot (with any leg to stand on) expect people to read their damned mind. Seriously. That's bullshit. If you know you mean something else, /ask that/.

What do I as an ST or game lead need for the game? Bodies in seats. That's it. Saying so doesn't imply that I don't have a focus or know what I'm doing, it's that I don't bloody plot for concepts I don't have.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Sunny said in Fallen World MUX!:

Much like in the real world, people who ask questions that are not what they mean cannot (with any leg to stand on) expect people to read their damned mind. Seriously. That's bullshit. If you know you mean something else, /ask that/.

Oh really? Then I will assume that you have never asked how someone was doing unless you cared about the answer? Or asked do you know what time it is rather then what time is it?
It would be nice if humans communicated directly what they meant however I will not hold my breath waiting for it.

[Sunny]

@ThatGuyThere

The key you're missing there is the expectation that the other person knows what you mean. People get offended all the time by people answering them literally, and that's on them.

If you ask what I need and I answer that with no way of knowing what you actually mean and you walk because I don't know what your actual question is, that's not my problem.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Sunny
That is well and good though the next time I some one asks me where I rp I will be sure to answer in my living room.
And I will stick with my current mode of considering anyone who gives the answer of "Whatever you want" to the question of "What should I play?" to be someone utterly unconcerned with actually being useful and a good sign to avoid the game in question.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Pyrephox said in Fallen World MUX!:

Even something like, "Right now, it's pretty open for a lot of concepts and characters. This game is oriented towards investigating Mysteries in an urban setting, so it's going to be easiest to get involved with characters who are high on the Mental skills, and now that I think about it, we could really use a dedicated technowizard or three for stuff that's in the works." That's a response that tells me that staff is open to diverse concepts, knows what their game is about and what sort of play they're angling for, AND has plots and events in the works that are fun to get involved with.

I foresee one immediate problem with this. Staff often won't know all the plots that are being run on any given game. Largely because all the plot-running responsibilities have been doled out to PLAYERS. The days of Staff ST's who know what's going on in a given sphere are swiftly coming to an end (at least in WoD, can't speak for other genre's). Now its largely just a disjointed mish-mash of one-shot-plots, Monster of the Week scenes, and private 2-3 scene arcs. So asking 'what's needed' will vary based on who you talk to. You can't say what's needed when there's no cohesive story arc to begin with.

Your entire desire for an answer to this question is dependent on there a) being an actual metaplot, and b) staff that are involved in said plot outside of their own characters' involvement.

Your argument also falls apart in that regardless of how many different players are behind the characters, more characters on a game mean less roles to be filled. So while the game with 5 players and 20 characters may not be welcoming to new people, the one with 20 players and 20 characters may not necessarily be anymore welcoming than the former. And, in fact, people will likely actually fight harder to keep their 'special spot' because its the only one they can have. Whereas with the game with fewer players, some may hop onto Alt #3 just to keep their position, but another may just as soon shrug and not care overmuch because they're having more fun with Alt #4 anyways.

I like my alts, I like the ability to try out new and different things without having to give up something else I'm having fun with. Does that mean I immediately make a mad rush for the most influential position I can snatch up on every character? Absolutely not. It just means that maybe I'm a little burned out on Social Butterfly for a bit but don't want to stop her story completely while still wanting to explore this new Antisocial Meganerd concept that's been rolling around in my head. If it works out, sweet, now I don't feel boxed into playing one 'type' all the time. If not, I'll drop the concept I'm not enjoying and stick with the one I do until another idea forms.

What it looks like you're really upset about are people who cling to 'roles' or 'positions' without actually being active in them, which is its own problem, and separate from (though sometimes connected with) how many alts a game allows. The two sometimes go hand-in-hand, but are by no means mutually exclusive.

[ThatGuyThere]

I am very divided on the topic of alts. I do not make them, or rather very rarely make one. I have never had more the two characters at one time on any game.
However, I generally am in favor of letting people alt all they want as long as they can keep them active and avoid alt conflicts it is fine with me.
I do generally try to avoid having close IC connections with the characters of folks with a lot of alts though, this is for one very selfish reason, a lot (by no mean all) of the serial alters are also serial alt droppers, which is something I completely support if you are not having fun on a char or can have my fun on a different one go for it, but I have gotten to the point where i dislike having to deal with the sudden drops so I will keep those folks at arms length ICly.

[Haven]

I am a one-alter, always.

In addition, I am suspect of (and not often fond of) people with 6+ alts, swapping them out every 1-3 months. I see instances of this with 15+ characters freezered, a play-life of 3 months max, and a need to have 6+ alts going at all times.

When do these people have time to sleep, pee, work, speak to fellow humans? I support their right/privilege to play like this. It's just not for me and I don't find meaningful long-term RP with these people... beyond those blessed 1-3 months.

[Arkandel]

@Haven They don't play the alts consecutively... they are usually played simultaneously.

Don't get me started!

[Haven]

@Arkandel Truth.

And don't get me started!

[Ganymede]

@Miss-Demeanor said in Fallen World MUX!:

I foresee one immediate problem with this. Staff often won't know all the plots that are being run on any given game. Largely because all the plot-running responsibilities have been doled out to PLAYERS.

This is true in practice, but it is still advisable for staff to give some idea of the direction in which they want to take the game. While players may run a lot of combat-oriented plots, staff should be able to accurately describe what sort of plots they are going to run.

It has been said many times before: PrPs should exist in order to "fill in the gaps." You don't need a metaplot for staff to run anything.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede said in Fallen World MUX!:

It has been said many times before: PrPs should exist in order to "fill in the gaps." You don't need a metaplot for staff to run anything.

Mmm, yes and no - in my opinion of course.

The most successful PrPs, metaplot or otherwise, aren't self-contained. That depends on the players as much as the ST but the plots I ran and felt good about were the ones characters took out of those temp rooms and into the grid, recruiting assistance, letting others see them in their new broken-down state and generally using them as a way into legitimate character growth rather than just... joining an +event, doing the thing and never really referencing it again.

That worked for me on the other side of the ST equation too. It was an ancient Carthian plot by @Cobaltasaurus that got my Crone interested in that faction which he ended up joining, an Eerie-ran scene in Arcadia which got my Mage fascinated with the Lost enough to eventually become a Fate Master, etc. PrPs don't need to be fillers, they can provide sustainable RP if they are handled well.

Conversely it's one of the reasons I don't usually like violent plots. Not because they can't also be great but because a lot of time they are just... disposable. I can only do so much with a plot that has me rolling +init five minutes into it and ends right as the last NPC dies.

[Calibraxa]

@ThatGuyThere said in Fallen World MUX!:

That is well and good though the next time I some one asks me where I rp I will be sure to answer in my living room.
And I will stick with my current mode of considering anyone who gives the answer of "Whatever you want" to the question of "What should I play?" to be someone utterly unconcerned with actually being useful and a good sign to avoid the game in question.

Honestly, even when I communicate directly, I still get that "play whatever you want!" line. At this point I take it as a sign that there really isn't much going on there, or that the theme is absolutely without direction. This has been the biggest hurdle in shifting from RPI MUDs to MUSHes, for me. On a MUD when you ask what role is needed, people will tell you. You'll get day one RP. Sometimes staff will even support you and give you minor perks because they're sick of having to field requests based around that role. On MUSHes you're just kind of left hanging, and then it always boils down to making OOC friends with the people there, at which point your character becomes irrelevant to the situation.

I think one thing people forget is that if I make a character based around X, I want to RP X with that character. Sure, you can contrive ways for that character to be involved in not-X, but at that point, why wouldn't I just build a character I enjoy around not-X? By doing it the "you can play whatever you want way" then shoehorning them in after the fact, I get the worst of both worlds: Not only am I not RPing the things I wanted to RP with this character, I'm not really RPing the things everyone else is RPing because I'm only here because of contrivances.

[Retias]

I have to agree. I do think the threads been sidetracked. It was about the Fallen World game, not how plots should be handled.

[Cobalt]

@Arkandel said in Fallen World MUX!:

That worked for me on the other side of the ST equation too. It was an ancient Carthian plot by @Cobaltasaurus that got my Crone interested in that faction which he ended up joining

I like, don't even remember...

[Arkandel]

@Cobaltasaurus said in Fallen World MUX!:

@Arkandel said in Fallen World MUX!:

That worked for me on the other side of the ST equation too. It was an ancient Carthian plot by @Cobaltasaurus that got my Crone interested in that faction which he ended up joining

I like, don't even remember...

At least I think that was you. Something about bombings, a car and the then-NPC Prince when the Carthians were still banned from the city.

As I said, it's been a while!

[Miss Demeanor]

@Ganymede I would agree with you, but you rarely see that happen in practice. Staff ST's simply don't happen nearly as often as they should. I have yet to see an actual story being told on a game, or even in a sphere, since... TR? Its been PRP's all the way down. So frankly, at that point, what staff wants becomes irrelevant since there are no steps being taken by them to actually push or keep a sphere going in any particular direction. Once its been left up to the players to provide the fun, with staff merely administrating? Its just a series of disjointed and unconnected scenes with no real direction.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor said in Fallen World MUX!:

@Ganymede I would agree with you, but you rarely see that happen in practice. Staff ST's simply don't happen nearly as often as they should. I have yet to see an actual story being told on a game, or even in a sphere, since... TR? Its been PRP's all the way down. So frankly, at that point, what staff wants becomes irrelevant since there are no steps being taken by them to actually push or keep a sphere going in any particular direction. Once its been left up to the players to provide the fun, with staff merely administrating? Its just a series of disjointed and unconnected scenes with no real direction.

That's one of the potential drawbacks - and I say 'potential' because it's not necessarily so - of running sandbox games like a lot of people do. Yes, it takes way less staff because you just have to make sure the MU* is up and +jobs are being handled more or less in time, but you relinquish thematic control over your game since it's at the mercy of Storytellers willing to do their thing; at that point what they want to run is what will end up being ran.

That has a couple of interesting sideeffects, too.

The first is an amusing one - staff who think they can dictate which stories are being run is the most common. "I'll just tell STs they have to abide by the direction I want in my game"; that's so cute. Like there's a small army of them just chomping at the bit waiting to see when they'll be allowed to run something that they'll abide by any requirements from above.

The other, more realistic and equally commonplace, is staff operating under the assumption the promises they got in terms of ST participation will turn out to be the case. "Bob and Mary already pledged they'll come do things over at my game, this is gonna be awesome!". But Bob happens to be busy due to Overwatch and Mary pledged the same thing to three different games so she runs one thing a week... which means players either find their own fun if they can, or they walk away - for newer games this can be a real killer since they don't stick around long enough for the next newbies to find someone to play with, so they leave too, etc.

The truth is this is a pick-your-own-poison proposition. Either you hire more staff so they can run plot, but then you get an inflated staff roster with all which that entails, or you try to keep it trimmed to work with a tightly-knit team and end up burning out to a crisp or relying on player STs to do these things.

[Ganymede]

@Miss-Demeanor said in Fallen World MUX!:

So frankly, at that point, what staff wants becomes irrelevant since there are no steps being taken by them to actually push or keep a sphere going in any particular direction. Once its been left up to the players to provide the fun, with staff merely administrating? Its just a series of disjointed and unconnected scenes with no real direction.

If staff does not create and maintain what they want, the game will fail.

This is a bigger problem than just what staff wants.