Fanbase entitlement

[Cupcake]

I immediately thought of the fanbase of Teen Wolf when I saw this thread. Romantic relationships are a core element of the show that the fandom latches onto, particularly the "Sterek" and "Stydia" types. Sterek shippers tend to adamantly insist the chemistry between the two characters in question is and has always been there and often get angry about it not being pushed into overt presentation and actual canon; Stydia types go into a flurry of "this is our year!" prior to every season. (Final season coming in Nov: THIS IS OUR YEAR!)

It actually got me thinking a lot about mushes that are based on media and how we approach canon on games. I love playing in the canon settings of media based worlds that I love, but I also find I have to be very careful and remind myself to be patient when it comes to how others view canon, and the necessity of canon. It is an acknowledged sense of entitlement, and an awareness that I have to curb my own urge of telling someone UR DOIN IT WRONG.

[Coin]

@Cupcake said in Fanbase entitlement:

I immediately thought of the fanbase of Teen Wolf when I saw this thread. Romantic relationships are a core element of the show that the fandom latches onto, particularly the "Sterek" and "Stydia" types. Sterek shippers tend to adamantly insist the chemistry between the two characters in question is and has always been there and often get angry about it not being pushed into overt presentation and actual canon; Stydia types go into a flurry of "this is our year!" prior to every season. (Final season coming in Nov: THIS IS OUR YEAR!)

It actually got me thinking a lot about mushes that are based on media and how we approach canon on games. I love playing in the canon settings of media based worlds that I love, but I also find I have to be very careful and remind myself to be patient when it comes to how others view canon, and the necessity of canon. It is an acknowledged sense of entitlement, and an awareness that I have to curb my own urge of telling someone UR DOIN IT WRONG.

Scydia or bust.

[Arkandel]

@Tinuviel I may be biased but a common clash of... cultures or perhaps mindsets comes when players and staff don't see eye to eye regarding the way things work. For instance I recall having a long thread going back and forth with @Coin trying to talk him into making buying Renown on Eldritch more liberal than he intended; neither of us was wrong per se (other in the general form of him being wrong by default, naturally) but ultimately the creator's intentions for a MU* have to be respected. In fact they will be since they maintain nearly all of the power in that equation in the exact way George Martin does; they get to do whatever they like, and it's up to the content consumers (players, in our case) to either accept it or walk away.

Either way I'm sure no one in this thread accepts overreactions such death threats to be acceptable; I'd say that barring major ethical failures on the creators' part, too, attempting to incite a boycott is going too far as well. Trying to convince audiences to not go see the new Harry Potter theatrical production because it's different feels quite wrong to me, for instance - but if it was promoting puppy-killing then it'd be acceptable. Likewise not getting my way about Renown would have been an acceptable reason to leave the MU* (it wasn't so I didn't) but not to try and get my friends to not play there by badmouthing the game for a creative choice; that's cheap.

[Cupcake]

@Coin said in

Scydia or bust.

I'd be cool with Scydia before Sterek, hey. Actually there's a really lovely interview with Tyler and Holland talking about the characters' friendship and when it truly solidified for them.

[Tinuviel]

@Arkandel I suppose it'd be a matter of scale. If, say, a known horribad staffer were making a game we would feel in our rights to point that out to someone talking about it. Just as if we had friends that liked classic Harry Potter rather than Harry Potter Does Coke and Kills Everyone, we'd be right to tell them that the new HBO version isn't necessarily what they'd expect.

But, is that entitlement? I don't know. I live a very sheltered life and don't really absorb much in the way of popular opinion before making my own mind up about most things. I know I was... well, outraged when Disney said they were axing the Star Wars expanded universe. I had been invested in the novels and so forth for decades - and I felt that it was a rather horrid way to treat both fans and creators of the content in saying "What happened doesn't matter now." Does that make me entitled?

[Coin]

@Cupcake said in Fanbase entitlement:

@Coin said in

Scydia or bust.

I'd be cool with Scydia before Sterek, hey. Actually there's a really lovely interview with Tyler and Holland talking about the characters' friendship and when it truly solidified for them.

Eh, the creators and writers have gone on record saying they don't think the fans want "realistic, consistent characterization" but rather "surprises!" so I don't expect jack shit and am content with whatever. I mean, the show is a mess and it has been for like three seasons now, but never as obviously as this last one.

I like the characters, but the storylines are horrible at this point. Malia's awesome though. Lydia too.

[Arkandel]

@Tinuviel Oh, criticism isn't the same as trying to incite boycotting.

For MU* purposes, saying "well, I was kinda bored on that MU*" is one thing; "staff is hostile and hound female players for TS, playing there would support that culture" is another.

[Tinuviel]

@Arkandel If both are true, would it be entitled behaviour to say as much?

[Arkandel]

@Tinuviel Ethical issues go beyond being part of a fanbase; say, if George Martin was a flaming racist I'd not buy his books and I'd make a point of stating why regardless of whether they're otherwise perfectly good works that scratch my nerdy itches. Orson Scott Card is sort of in that niche for me these days.

As for MU* that's significantly more likely to happen, too. I already wouldn't play on a game whose staff I mistrust or where I feel uncomfortable for any reason, so actually knowing (or at least believing, which isn't necessarily the same thing!) there are shenanigans like that happening would make me leave just about right away.

However if the only actual problem with a MU* is that their policies don't agree with me then it's a judgement call; does the fact hinder my ability to have fun more than leaving? If so I'm out of there. If not I put on my big boy pants, accept staff's decision and move on. The only wrong approach in this situation is both staying and being miserable about it (or, worse, making others miserable by constantly harping on it every chance I get or making excuses to beat the same dead horse again).

[Tinuviel]

@Arkandel Maturity? In my MU*?
It's less likely than you think.

[Roz]

Here's one example of fan entitlement that I actually somewhat subscribe to: I really do think we deserve a freaking cleaned up, remastered version of the original Star Wars films without the Special Edition additions. I think the fans who blew up the films into the cultural juggernaut it is today really do deserve to be able to buy and watch the films they fell in love with. I find George Lucas's later insistence that he'd never release the originals again, that the Special Edition was what he wanted all along, to weirdly be more entitled. YMMV on that though.

@Coin said in Fanbase entitlement:

@Cupcake said in Fanbase entitlement:

I immediately thought of the fanbase of Teen Wolf when I saw this thread. Romantic relationships are a core element of the show that the fandom latches onto, particularly the "Sterek" and "Stydia" types. Sterek shippers tend to adamantly insist the chemistry between the two characters in question is and has always been there and often get angry about it not being pushed into overt presentation and actual canon; Stydia types go into a flurry of "this is our year!" prior to every season. (Final season coming in Nov: THIS IS OUR YEAR!)
Scydia or bust.

RIP Allydia.

[Cupcake]

@Roz said in Fanbase entitlement:

RIP Allydia.

I feel you. (I actually enjoy that ship.)

@Coin: I like Malia as an individual character, not so much the Stalia combo.

[il-volpe]

@Thenomain said in Fanbase entitlement:

Prediction: This thread will be about how entitlement is bad and specific examples about how people have acted in an entitled manner. No debate about if entitlement is bad will take place.

Well, yeah. In US culture, at least, people talk about 'entitlement' as if it being bad is part of the meaning of the word. I recall my ex throwing it around during our divorce as if my 'entitlement' in believing that I not only got to keep half of the savings and shit that we had accumulated together but also all of my furniture and household crap that I had from before was not a literal fact, but me being rapacious and wrong.

In the context of games and fandom the discussion should probably just be about reasonable expectations. Obviously we're not entitled to artists' works. Yet, while George R. R. Martin is not your bitch, it's also a reasonable expectation to figure a big-name professional writer will produce a novel every year or two; the publishing industry expects it too. (Though considering Martin's history, maybe it's not reasonable to expect that of him.) If I invite you to dinner and give you nothing but a saltine smeared with a small amount of rancid butter, I have not denied you an entitlement, but I have violated your reasonable expectation of a decent meal, and I am being a dick. When artists grossly jump the shark on a series, it's probably dickish. When MU-runners shut new players out of the game or treat them with brazen hostility or deny their characters agency, it's dickish, even though nobody's entitled to a satisfying MU.

[Lisse24]

@il-volpe said in Fanbase entitlement:

In the context of games and fandom the discussion should probably just be about reasonable expectations. Obviously we're not entitled to artists' works. Yet, while George R. R. Martin is not your bitch, it's also a reasonable expectation to figure a big-name professional writer will produce a novel every year or two; the publishing industry expects it too. (Though considering Martin's history, maybe it's not reasonable to expect that of him.) If I invite you to dinner and give you nothing but a saltine smeared with a small amount of rancid butter, I have not denied you an entitlement, but I have violated your reasonable expectation of a decent meal, and I am being a dick. When artists grossly jump the shark on a series, it's probably dickish. When MU-runners shut new players out of the game or treat them with brazen hostility or deny their characters agency, it's dickish, even though nobody's entitled to a satisfying MU.

Right, and I think that the next question that follows is how players who feel entitled to something (a novel published in a reasonable time frame, a game with a staff that treats all players warmly, etc.) should react when these expectations, both reasonable are met. I think the reason that entitlement gets a bad rap is that instead of reacting to the fact that their expectations were not met in a reasonable manner, many people, fans especially, throw temper tantrums.

In some cases, this may be the reasonable response (see the game not treating players fairly), in some cases this may not be (waiting several years for the next book in a series to be published).

[Thenomain]

@il-volpe

And this is the rub. It seems there are two or three common definitions of "entitlement", but the one used in the article was most certainly the one your ex was using.

For example, I disagree with House of Cards' Kevin Spacey, as the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights entitles its citizens to quite a lot. I'll agree with Joss that investment in fiction doesn't entitle fans to demand certain behaviors of the authors, but I'll also agree with Gaiman (and you) that the expectations of your audience is incredibly important.

Really, had I not been writing on a tablet at the time, I might have gone on to say that the originally linked article was pretty horrible because it was comparing two things which are not exclusive, using loaded link-bait phrasing. "Chocolate: It's poison! And delicious!" Er, yes, these two things are true. And? And?!

[Kanye Qwest]

@Tinuviel said in Fanbase entitlement:

and I felt that it was a rather horrid way to treat both fans and creators of the content in saying "What happened doesn't matter now." Does that make me entitled?

Yeah, that's weird. I can guarantee it wasn't a "lol fuck fans and all these randos who wrote this stuff". It was "do we want to go through the logistical nightmare of trying to put together and honor a timeline set out by dozens of different authors, or do we want to stick with the basics and do our own thing from there with some room for fresh creativity". Disappointment is understandable. Taking it personally is weird.

[ThatGuyThere]

I think the term entitlement has gotten a bad rap, because of the common laziness. The actual negative phrase originated as "false entitlement" but people being lazy shortened that to just "entitlement" and well the politicizing of the term to use it when entitlement is legally there but the speaker wishes it wasn't. (Most often in conjunction with social programs)

As far as fan base entitlement goes I tend to be on both sides of the issue, no one in entitled to demand another conform their creative work to their wishes, and no artist of any sort is entitled to an audience. If Joss Wheedan or GRRM decided today to say fuck it and not produce a single thing ever again that is there right, or if the want to end a franchise with rocks fall everyone dies, that is also their right. (Of course depending on the contracts for the property involved either networks or publishers might have a say but you know what I mean.) that said it is also the right of every fan of their works to express an opinion on them.

"Fan Entitlement" is not a new thing. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed of Sherlock Holmes because he wanted to right other things, fans has hissy fits and pretty much badgers him into bringing Sherlock back, all this happened over a hundred years ago.
If you in a creative industry I can see getting sick of dealing with fans, heck i get sick of dealing with other fans of things I like quite often but no one is forced to take that job nor is fan behavior and culture a secret, I have no sympathy for the Wheedon, GRRM, Gaiman or anyone else they had to know what they were opening themselves up to in the choice of their career after all the Sherlock thing happened well before any of their births.

[Kanye Qwest]

@ThatGuyThere Blaming the victim is gross, no matter the context.

[Arkandel]

I don't even know if it counts as fanbase entitlement or just general inability to cope with the reality that actors aren't their characters but...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/28/entertainment/bradley-cooper-chris-kyle-dnc-trnd/

TL;DR: Bradley Cooper got booed for appearing at the DNC because how dare he when he played a conservative icon in American Sniper?

[Coin]

@ThatGuyThere said in Fanbase entitlement:

I think the term entitlement has gotten a bad rap, because of the common laziness. The actual negative phrase originated as "false entitlement" but people being lazy shortened that to just "entitlement" and well the politicizing of the term to use it when entitlement is legally there but the speaker wishes it wasn't. (Most often in conjunction with social programs)

As far as fan base entitlement goes I tend to be on both sides of the issue, no one in entitled to demand another conform their creative work to their wishes, and no artist of any sort is entitled to an audience. If Joss Wheedan or GRRM decided today to say fuck it and not produce a single thing ever again that is there right, or if the want to end a franchise with rocks fall everyone dies, that is also their right. (Of course depending on the contracts for the property involved either networks or publishers might have a say but you know what I mean.) that said it is also the right of every fan of their works to express an opinion on them.

"Fan Entitlement" is not a new thing. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed of Sherlock Holmes because he wanted to right other things, fans has hissy fits and pretty much badgers him into bringing Sherlock back, all this happened over a hundred years ago.
If you in a creative industry I can see getting sick of dealing with fans, heck i get sick of dealing with other fans of things I like quite often but no one is forced to take that job nor is fan behavior and culture a secret, I have no sympathy for the Wheedon, GRRM, Gaiman or anyone else they had to know what they were opening themselves up to in the choice of their career after all the Sherlock thing happened well before any of their births.

Your criticism of "laziness" being to blame for "false entitlement" being shortened to "entitlement" is hilarious considering your usual justification to any sort of "please write consistent English".

You challenge my descriptivist heart, man. You challenge it.

P.S. It actually comes from sense of entitlement, which can be described as "false entitlement", but since your criticism is all about picking that nit, I figured I'd join in.

P.P.S. I woke up moody as fuck today.