@Ganymede Well, it comes down to many factors if we're talking MU* here. Renown availability is one of them - on every game I've been on vampires could just buy just about anything but Werewolves couldn't, for example. And MU* do tend to err on the side of caution (with good reason, I think) on making larger XP pools available to characters.
Or... we need to consider whether characters are prepared to have a fight as that changes everything. For example any wolf group worth a damn would try to have the fisticuffs during the day because, wtf. Similarly vampires would use silver. And if we're talking Mages (whose thread this is after all) they sure can fuck your life up if they get to sit in a room and fling shit your way.
But it's a fun exercise to do number crunching anyway. 
@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
But it's a fun exercise to do number crunching anyway.
And power-checking! Let's not forget that.
Not sure if I agree with @Coin at lower power levels, but I suspect that's correct. Vampires get a few more auto-buffs; Resilience reduces damage, not pools; Vigor can add damage, not dice.
But out of all three of the lines, Werewolves are the Warriors, Vampires are the Rogues, and Mages are the Wizards.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
But it's a fun exercise to do number crunching anyway.
And power-checking! Let's not forget that.
Not sure if I agree with @Coin at lower power levels, but I suspect that's correct. Vampires get a few more auto-buffs; Resilience reduces damage, not pools; Vigor can add damage, not dice.
But out of all three of the lines, Werewolves are the Warriors, Vampires are the Rogues, and Mages are the Wizards.
Vigor adds both damage AND dice.
Vigor passively adds its rating to all Strength rolls (including attacks) and, for 1 Vitae, ALSO adds its rating as successes for damage in attacks.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
Note that Resilience would be no protection against Butchery, Resilience explicitly allows the application of tilts still.
I'm a rodeo clown.
Another factor: Escaping if things are going badly. Vampires have way more ways to do that than Werewolves do. So if your first turn's dice were catastrophic... reset the encounter!
EDIT: Cheesy as fuck but wait until they pop Gauru, then escape... wait for it to run out, then kill'em.
I dislike this skill bypass idea. It goes against everything that nature and rpg design is about. That experience matters.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
@Misadventure said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
I dislike this skill bypass idea. It goes against everything that nature and rpg design is about. That experience matters.
Except the theory is that when you are confronted with a werewolf in Gauru, your Defense is reduced to your instincts because of the sheer terror. Removing the Skill is just the mechanic that takes. It also applies to other werewolves in Gauru, so it's really just a universal bonus to a Gauru-shaped werewolf.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
Doesn't make me like it better, for stated reasons. It's disempowering to others, instead of empowering to the werewolf. That also tends to be a bad move in game design.
Likewise, it doesn't address why terror doesn't affect my attributes. Why not just say everything is always frozen in terror? I get what they are going for, but I'd rather see a set penalty that can be partially offset by some roll, a virtue, something other than ignore one aspect of other characters. Likewise, someone with no skill factor just isn't affected. It's a badly considered mechanic.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Except the theory is that when you are confronted with a werewolf in Gauru, your Defense is reduced to your instincts because of the sheer terror.
The way I always thought of it is that against that primal state of living in the moment, with the enhanced reach of a giant nightmare given flesh, defense can't work; you simply can't react faster than that damn thing can act. It's all instinct, and you are not.
@Misadventure said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Doesn't make me like it better, for stated reasons. It's disempowering to others, instead of empowering to the werewolf. That also tends to be a bad move in game design.
Likewise, it doesn't address why terror doesn't affect my attributes. Why not just say everything is always frozen in terror? I get what they are going for, but I'd rather see a set penalty that can be partially offset by some roll, a virtue, something other than ignore one aspect of other characters. Likewise, someone with no skill factor just isn't affected. It's a badly considered mechanic.
I could probably answer all those points to my satisfaction, but not yours, so... enh. Lazy.
@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Vigor adds both damage AND dice.
I know, but I was alluding to the fact that Vampires get a few more powers that automatically add or subtract successes, rather than adding or subtracting dice, which may or may not become a success.
@Misadventure said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
I dislike this skill bypass idea. It goes against everything that nature and rpg design is about. That experience matters.
I'm not sure what you're going on about, but people disappearing is a defense maneuver to a superior opponent in combat. This is why Mekhet have a fighting chance against any of the other Clans. Take that away, and you pretty much have a Toreador without the social ability or extra actions.
If you're talking about how Gauru form terrorizes others into acting like frightened rabbits, I still don't know what you mean by "skill bypass." What's being bypassed?
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
I'm not sure what you're going on about, but people disappearing is a defense maneuver to a superior opponent in combat.
And a tactical choice. Gauru -> Obfuscate + wait -> sadwolf works wonders.
@ganymede Someone said there is something that removes the targets skill rating from their defense based on terror. I am reacting to that.
If that is how they handle any attack where the foe shouldn't have full defense, like an attack from invisibility, that makes it a little better. It removes any correlation between cause and effect.
I still think its stupid but that's a personal taste issue.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
@Misadventure The 'terror' thing is just one interpretation, I don't have the book in front of me but I don't think it justifies why there's no skill factoring into defense.
@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
And a tactical choice. Gauru -> Obfuscate + wait -> sadwolf works wonders.
If Lore of the Land is used, I don't think Obfuscate is going to help you. The Gift expressly states that the user becomes aware of all creatures in his presence within a given radius, as well as other threats like fires and explosives. There's no resistance roll.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@Ganymede Pft. Primeval Miasm. Basically anything that buys the Vampire a minute - then the Werewolf is so screwed.
@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
There's no resistance roll.
I believe that Clash of Wills is presented as key rule, like Sanctity of Merits. Of all the rules to hand-wave, this isn't one of them.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@Thenomain My favorite bah-roken nWoD 1.0 power in general was a Theban Sorcery ... 4? rite called Spear of Faith if my memory serves. With X successes on the roll, whose pool was hilariously easy to stack up, you did X damage to the first target, X-1 to the next, X-2 to the next, etc... without any resistance rolls, bypassing armor or defense.
@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Pft. Primeval Miasm. Basically anything that buys the Vampire a minute - then the Werewolf is so screwed.
Why? Most of the powers mentioned function just fine out of Gauru form. You can grow claws in human form that deal +1L with Quicksilver Flesh. And Urshul Form is badass in its own way, inflicting Tilts if you do any damage.
You may not be able to regenerate like craziness, but that Rahu isn't defenseless. I'd probably start the whole affair in Urshul, and just wait for the fight to begin.
@Thenomain said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
I believe that Clash of Wills is presented as key rule, like Sanctity of Merits. Of all the rules to hand-wave, this isn't one of them.
Of course, but this also means the strategy of "oh just obfuscate away!" isn't fail-safe.
@Arkandel There were more than a few powers like that in WoD. Create Opening (Opening Gift), the Telekinesis Numen, and a few others that elude me where the only negative was usually just to use X as an attack where you took a paltry -3. This isn't taking into account the hilarity of grenades + Shurikenjutsu 3.
Another factor: Escaping if things are going badly. Vampires have way more ways to do that than Werewolves do. So if your first turn's dice were catastrophic... reset the encounter!
EDIT: Cheesy as fuck but wait until they pop Gauru, then escape... wait for it to run out, then kill'em.
