Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Yes, if your system is caked into the overall game so that people are enticed to use all of its aspects then they will.

It would be more apt to say that the game forced you to use all its aspects.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede That's kind of what I meant, but in a different way. For example (and it's just an example):

Staff can demand/enforce through the rules that Werewolves properly spend Essence for their stuff. In that case staff creates an administrative overhead - they need to make it part of the game's culture for those players to type +spend Essence=1 properly when it's appropriate in all of their scenes whether they're PrPs or on the everyday grid, and all the extra policing isn't pleasant for anyone involved.

Staff can also make resource management be an essential part of the game - yes, Uratha fight for territory because it's in their nature, blah-blah. But if with territory come tangible effects - Loci with Essence flowing, codified Renown-gaining benefits, systematised NPC reputation gains, easily tracked through your +sheet and not just out-of-date wiki pages somewhere still showing packs inert for months holding that ground... then players themselves will want to use these in-game achievements, and they'll insist others do the same. After all if you've bust your ass for weeks to control the Locus in the gas station's bathroom you'll remind the other guy to use their goddamn Essence when he shifts reflexively. At that point it's just ingrained into the game. It becomes a good thing, it actually enhances roleplay way past the PrP you're in.

That's what I meant by 'entice'. Yes, it's enforced, but enforcement doesn't need to be a bad thing - when done properly.

The lazy way (sticking a rule in a policy file: "USE ESSENCE OKAY? OR ELSE!", donefixed) doesn't work remotely as well.

[tragedyjones]

Hmm I would love a way to make resource management work for a game. Hypothetically.

[surreality]

@Arkandel What kills me is that I really have always seen people do these things. I haven't been playing nWoD/CoD as long as y'all have, but I know in ye olden oWoD days that was common, and I've seen people typically doing these things during the time I've played as well. Maybe I've just lucked out?

[tragedyjones]

Doublepost, I have cast spells in 2 scenes on Fallen World. The first, we followed all of the rules, and I rolled for Paradox (I believe I used an extra reach if I am remembering what caused the need) and the second, my lovely Order buddies allowed me to use Down and Dirty for a minor effect.

[Coin]

@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Doublepost, I have cast spells in 2 scenes on Fallen World. The first, we followed all of the rules, and I rolled for Paradox (I believe I used an extra reach if I am remembering what caused the need) and the second, my lovely Order buddies allowed me to use Down and Dirty for a minor effect.

That ghost is so bitchy. I hope you're playing her making your PC's day-to-day miserable. >.>

[Misadventure]

Perhaps part of the issue is whether people player to overcome difficulty and limitations to their available choices in fiction, or to not have any difficulties and limitations. Note that if you are prefer that you in complete control of your characters difficulties in the fiction, you are in the latter group.

[HorrorHound]

@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@surreality said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Also disagree re: "kill the witnesses" being the perfect answer, because what a lovely followup to having already driven those players out of the scene.

I'm not really suggesting this is a good idea for a MU*, but it is a perfectly acceptable strategy for a pack of werewolves to avoid witnesses blabbing.

Especially for the awarded prestige every splat is given, for killing werewolves.

[tragedyjones]

Also, to cast a lethal spell in combat takes 1 turn, and a maximum of, +2 Yantra dice? Mages really need to prepare these days. Dangerous and versatile yes, but they did a wonderful job of balancing them.

[Ganymede]

@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Also, to cast a lethal spell in combat takes 1 turn, and a maximum of, +2 Yantra dice? Mages really need to prepare these days. Dangerous and versatile yes, but they did a wonderful job of balancing them.

Yeah. Your lethal spell may do 3L-5L. But if I get close enough, my Martial Arts 5 fist to your face will do the same or worse.

[Coin]

@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Also, to cast a lethal spell in combat takes 1 turn, and a maximum of, +2 Yantra dice? Mages really need to prepare these days. Dangerous and versatile yes, but they did a wonderful job of balancing them.

Yeah. Your lethal spell may do 3L-5L. But if I get close enough, my Martial Arts 5 fist to your face will do the same or worse.

Nevermind a vampire with Protean and Vigor. Or an angry werewolf who gets to ignore the Skill part of your Defense when they enter Gauru...

[Autumn]

@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Also, to cast a lethal spell in combat takes 1 turn, and a maximum of, +2 Yantra dice? Mages really need to prepare these days. Dangerous and versatile yes, but they did a wonderful job of balancing them.

You can draw upon one Yantra reflexively when casting a spell. If you have the spell as a Rote, you can use the appropriate Skill rating. If you have Potent Shadow Name and the spell fits your paradigm, then you can use the merit rating. As far as I can tell, there is no explicit limit to the number of dice your one Yantra can add, just the practical limit of which ones you have available.

To my mind the fact that ritual spellcasting is no longer handled as an extended action is one of the largest factors in depowering 2nd edition. You can still do some impressive things, but you can no longer bring a ridiculously enormous pile of dice to the table. That's fine with me -- impressive things are fun. Just winning because you have the biggest pile of dice is boring.

[Ganymede]

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Nevermind a vampire with Protean and Vigor.

Or just Vigor, because having a weapon bonus technically means that the strike does lethal damage; even if held otherwise, having +3B-+5B is still pretty bad against a Mage, who is squishy.

Or an angry werewolf who gets to ignore the Skill part of your Defense when they enter Gauru...

That doesn't even really matter, does it? They do lethal damage. With bonuses. And regenerate every fucking health level at the beginning of the turn unless they are killed. Or the Full Moon 1 Gift -- Level One -- which gives you 8-again on all Brawl and Weaponry rolls. Or Full Moon 2, which gives you additional Health levels for each Purity renown. And then Full Moon 3, which gives you a bonus to all attack rolls equal to your Purity renown against anyone getting between you and your prey. Then there's Butchery --

And did I mention that Renown only costs 3 XP per dot now, instead of that insane amount it used to cost?

Then there's the Cahalith, who, with Gibbous Moon 1, gives all pack members within earshot a +1L weapon bonus on all brawl and weaponry attacks regardless of form.

Or the Irraka that turns Brawl and Weaponry attacks into rote rolls if they take a target by surprise.

Then the Shadow Gifts, which can allow you to find any piece of information anywhere. And other tricks like that.

You want to talk over-powered? Werewolves. All the way.

[Glitch]

Good thing there is a mage only game where mages can play without dealing with all those overpowered other splats. It just wouldn't be fair for mages otherwise.

[Coin]

@Ganymede said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Nevermind a vampire with Protean and Vigor.

Or just Vigor, because having a weapon bonus technically means that the strike does lethal damage; even if held otherwise, having +3B-+5B is still pretty bad against a Mage, who is squishy.

Or an angry werewolf who gets to ignore the Skill part of your Defense when they enter Gauru...

That doesn't even really matter, does it? They do lethal damage. With bonuses. And regenerate every fucking health level at the beginning of the turn unless they are killed. Or the Full Moon 1 Gift -- Level One -- which gives you 8-again on all Brawl and Weaponry rolls. Or Full Moon 2, which gives you additional Health levels for each Purity renown. And then Full Moon 3, which gives you a bonus to all attack rolls equal to your Purity renown against anyone getting between you and your prey. Then there's Butchery --

And did I mention that Renown only costs 3 XP per dot now, instead of that insane amount it used to cost?

Then there's the Cahalith, who, with Gibbous Moon 1, gives all pack members within earshot a +1L weapon bonus on all brawl and weaponry attacks regardless of form.

Or the Irraka that turns Brawl and Weaponry attacks into rote rolls if they take a target by surprise.

Then the Shadow Gifts, which can allow you to find any piece of information anywhere. And other tricks like that.

You want to talk over-powered? Werewolves. All the way.

Well, yes. But understating it reserved all those other things for later, in case anyone argued. Thanks for ruining my gun, Gany.

[tragedyjones]

@Autumn said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@tragedyjones said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Also, to cast a lethal spell in combat takes 1 turn, and a maximum of, +2 Yantra dice? Mages really need to prepare these days. Dangerous and versatile yes, but they did a wonderful job of balancing them.

You can draw upon one Yantra reflexively when casting a spell. If you have the spell as a Rote, you can use the appropriate Skill rating. If you have Potent Shadow Name and the spell fits your paradigm, then you can use the merit rating. As far as I can tell, there is no explicit limit to the number of dice your one Yantra can add, just the practical limit of which ones you have available.

To my mind the fact that ritual spellcasting is no longer handled as an extended action is one of the largest factors in depowering 2nd edition. You can still do some impressive things, but you can no longer bring a ridiculously enormous pile of dice to the table. That's fine with me -- impressive things are fun. Just winning because you have the biggest pile of dice is boring.

The rote Bonus is a Yantra, so yeah, I suppose you could use up to +5 if you have the rote: Kill a Dude with Magic. But then you aren't using your DMT to mitigate paradox!

[Ganymede]

@Coin said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

Thanks for ruining my gun, Gany.

At least it's not your Love Gun.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Glitch said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:

@ThatGuyThere I agree that the skirting of mechanics set in place to limit character abilities is technically cheating. In a private scene where there's no PvP involved, no real outside consequence and everyone is on board with it? I see less of a problem with it since it's not done to screw anyone or make illicit gains.

I agree with this, if everyone involved is fine with dispensing with a mechanic then it should go for that scene, just like I have frequently seen with other things, however if someone agree to getting rid of paradox then they really don't have a leg to stand on when they then complain Mage is over powered.
To me getting rid of paradox my consent of all those involved is like using a cheat code on a video game. Sure it is fine but then don't complain that the game was too easy.

[Autumn]

@tragedyjones

True, but it's still not that big a deal. Since you have the rote for a level 4 lethal-damage attack spell, you take Instant Cast and Sensory Range as your free Reaches, and you don't even need to check Paradox unless you're getting tagged for it by Sleeper witnesses.

Direct-damage spells are actually more practical to use in combat in 2E. But fortunately it's much harder to do huge, huge amounts of damage with them.

[tragedyjones]

@Autumn Yes they are nice, but they aren't inherently better than, say, a gun. There are much better uses for magic than simply throwing a fireball at someone. But yes, if you need to, you can fireball the fuck out of someone, given a few moments to prep!