Jul 21, 2015, 4:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3LWOTCW4A
That was the gag Nielsen used to make his point.
"Nice beaver!"
"Thank you, I just had it stuffed!"
Eldritch - A World of Darkness MUX
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3LWOTCW4A
That was the gag Nielsen used to make his point.
"Nice beaver!"
"Thank you, I just had it stuffed!"
- about a month later
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Werewolf and Vampire will be opening again for apps this Friday. Anyone interested, now's the time.
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Dibs on a Warwoof.
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Dibs on "Vampiledriver", the newest entry in the Werewolf Wrestling Federation.
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I now want to see a Werewolf Wrestling Federation. I will totally be a ring girl.
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This is why we can't have good things.
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@Templari said:
This is why we can't have good things.
We can't have good things, but we can have awesome things.
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@Thenomain and @tragedyjones if you two make a Werewofl Wrestling Federation I will CG A WOLFBLOODED RIGHT NOW. Not a wolf because I prefer wolfblooded. I WANT TO BE A RING GIRL.
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So I'm really struggling with Werewolf app, specifically with the character I want to play versus the way Tribes have been seriously whittled down by giving each one a very specific prey. 1e's Tribes just felt...more tribal, I guess? Each one had a broader sense of culture, community and diversity to me when you didn't have only one thing each Tribe was meant to "do." Right now they kind of feel like a second Auspice, which fails to inspire. Maybe I'm speaking too soon, before the inevitable Tribebooks are released?
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@Wizz I've encountered the same sort of roadblocks with werewolf. I won't claim any sort of expertise with 2nd ed, but if you want to focus on, say, humans as your "prey", it seems like it'd be hard to justify not being an Iron Master. The tribe might otherwise not appeal to you, but I felt like it's a non-option if your prey focus falls under the purview of a particular tribe.
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@Glitch Exactly. My beef is it feels now like there's no real reason otherwise to be an Iron Master, to use your example. Before, Tribal focus was more on their oath and Renown and how it applied to every aspect of their lives as Werewolves; Iron Masters were the cunning beasts who were truly a part of the city and its Shadow, and you honored Sagrim-Ur as your spiritual father in your ability to constantly adapt. Now it's like, you're an Iron Master because you hunt people, the end.
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@Wizz said:
Now it's like, you're an Iron Master because you hunt people, the end.
I find this more of a feature than a flaw. The obvious focus in Werewolf 2e is the hunt. The Tribes dictate what you're best at hunting, and the Auspices dictate how you go about participating in the hunt. It limits concepts in that there really aren't any wolves that don't hunt, but I think that's part of the game.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede
Yeah, The Wolf Must Hunt. I know that's the focus and it is meant to be a tighter, more visceral game. I think that I had a conversation about this with @Thenomain at one point -- that he wasn't a fan of Werewolf because Werewolves are Werewolves and that there's not much more to them, and I don't think I can disagree with that in 2E. It's cool to be an apex predator, but I kind of miss 1E's hints of a broader identity. They weren't just hunters, they were guardians and lore-keepers and shamans and lords.^_______^
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Nuance and subtleties are provided by the player, the broad strokes are offered by the setting. Werewolf concepts in 2.0 are extremely fluid - which fits its themes, I guess - but they give you just enough rope to hang yourself with as well; it's very easy to create monolithic one-dimensional beastmen who go around chasing things.
If there was one systemic shift I'd have introduced it's making Harmony actually be more volatile than it currently is, as it'd be fun to play characters who actually move up and down its scale; the mechanics make it so it's fairly improbable, but there would be a fun challenge in playing folks who are closer to their human or spirit ends of the spectrum more often during their lifetime as PCs.
Otherwise though I find the departure from the single-mindedness of playing spirit cop in 1.0 has helped me at least portray a more in-depth character in the end. The thing about Werewolf as a game which hasn't changed in the second edition is how deeply dependent it is on storytelling; unlike say, Vampire or even Changeling where sphere politics can (and I think, should) provide a layer of friction and set of goals between PCs without requiring much more, playing furballs makes way more sense when there are things you are IC struggling to get just outside their grasp; enemies stronger than they are, more elusive prey, secrets they can't understand.
Basically if you want to challenge your hunter, confound them. Then the concept gets to breathe - in my experience.
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@Ganymede said:
I find this more of a feature than a flaw. The obvious focus in Werewolf 2e is the hunt. The Tribes dictate what you're best at hunting, and the Auspices dictate how you go about participating in the hunt. It limits concepts in that there really aren't any wolves that don't hunt, but I think that's part of the game.
Not really disagreeing with Gany so much as just using this as a jumping off point for the post.
I don't see a need to make a werewolf that fits the tribe like a hand in a glove. While the auspice is your nature, the tribe is chosen. And yes, there's not many of them. Which means that there's going to be werewolves in those tribes that don't fit lock, stock and barrel.
Maybe they have a vendetta against the chosen prey but don't really buy the tribe's philosophy that much. Or they feel the philosophy really fits them but are ambivalent about the prey. Or maybe it's as simple as they just have a bunch of friends in the tribe, much like someone who only goes to church on Easter when it's expected but is drawn to the social aspects of the community.
They'd still hunt. That's what werewolves do. But I'd think it's rare that a mere five tribes will appeal perfectly to every werewolf out there. There's probably more outliers than poster children while most fit somewhere in the middle.
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@Wizz said:
I think that I had a conversation about this with @Thenomain at one point -- that he wasn't a fan of Werewolf because Werewolves are Werewolves and that there's not much more to them, and I don't think I can disagree with that in 2E. It's cool to be an apex predator, but I kind of miss 1E's hints of a broader identity. They weren't just hunters, they were guardians and lore-keepers and shamans and lords.
I don't think the game limits the potential of players either.
You can be the reluctant Rahu. You can be the bumbling Irraka. You can be the stay-at-home Cahalith. That's not limited at all.
But try as you may, the Rahu are best at one role. They can struggle against it all they want, and that makes for excellent internal character tension. As much as Ralph wants to be loved and seen for his thoughtful side, his Alpha is going to want him to Wreck-It because that's what he's built to do.
You can devise characters around features, and have as much fluidity as you want. But you will hunt, and your target generally leads you to one Tribe or another.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede said:
But try as you may, the Rahu are best at one role. They can struggle against it all they want, and that makes for excellent internal character tension. As much as Ralph wants to be loved and seen for his thoughtful side, his Alpha is going to want him to Wreck-It because that's what he's built to do.
Eh. I have to disagree, here. While yes, you have certain affinities that make certain things come easier to you, there is nothing preventing you from buying other things as well. Short of the Moon Gifts, any werewolf can buy anything, and once it's unlocked, adding facets is all the same price, assuming you have the relevant renown.
Really, tribes aren't that limiting. They're the area where other people defer to you. Auspices aren't really all that limiting either. It just gives you a generalized toolset to use in order to attain your goal. Short of a few rites and merits, any werewolf can really do anything, though they may be slightly more proficient in areas that come naturally to them.
It really depends on how you look at it. If you want to see it in a pessimistic light, then yeah, they're leaving you a trail of breadcrumbs that wanders down a generic path. If you like to keep things simple and don't mind making a generic cookie cutter character, then by all means take it. It's very newbie friendly in that regard. If you're a more advanced player, though, there is nothing stopping you from coloring outside of the lines a bit if you want to experiment with different setup, and they've given you all the tools with which to do it. You aren't restricted from having anything at all, short of Moon Gifts and some merits and rites, which are just flavor add ons.
Angle of approach. It makes a world of difference.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@Derp said:
Eh. I have to disagree, here. While yes, you have certain affinities that make certain things come easier to you, there is nothing preventing you from buying other things as well. Short of the Moon Gifts, any werewolf can buy anything, and once it's unlocked, adding facets is all the same price, assuming you have the relevant renown.
Moon Gifts make a world of difference, but I'll concede that the other Gifts can be purchased at a higher cost. So, you can make a combat-ready Elodoth, but the system stacks it so it's easier to be the negotiator/judge.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede said:
Moon Gifts make a world of difference, but I'll concede that the other Gifts can be purchased at a higher cost. So, you can make a combat-ready Elodoth, but the system stacks it so it's easier to be the negotiator/judge.
A world of difference? Eh. They give you an edge, but not so much of one that they make it impossible for other people to one-up you. I have a pretty combat capable character (really, about as capable as it comes) who is neither Blood Talon nor Rahu. In fact, he's not one of the 'classical combat' splat types at all. I guess It really just depends on how you want to progress.
Edited for cleaner wording.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@Ganymede said:
@Derp said:
Eh. I have to disagree, here. While yes, you have certain affinities that make certain things come easier to you, there is nothing preventing you from buying other things as well. Short of the Moon Gifts, any werewolf can buy anything, and once it's unlocked, adding facets is all the same price, assuming you have the relevant renown.
Moon Gifts make a world of difference, but I'll concede that the other Gifts can be purchased at a higher cost. So, you can make a combat-ready Elodoth, but the system stacks it so it's easier to be the negotiator/judge.
Ganymede - I think you had the right of it before when you used the rahu as an example. Its like in the military if you're in a mortar team you wouldn't be surprised to here someone yell, "Put that fucking book away and go blow something up!" I think the perception from other PCs/NPCs would be much the same as well but it doesn't mean you as a player need to conform to those ideals and the system supports that.