Suitable system for a gritty fantasy game

[Bobotron]

Also, quickstarts. It contains Revised Quickstarts for Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf; and 2e quickstarts for Changeling and Vampire.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qdiyrxu2tmj0xe0/Quickstarts.rar?dl=0

[Thenomain]

@fatefan said in Suitable system for a gritty fantasy game:

Zweihander is a WFRP 2e retroclone that might work well, but it may be too crunchy (maybe?) for some. Also, there's lots of assumed PC death that MU*ers may not want to deal with.

I just downloaded the free preview PDF and... this book is six hundred and seven frickin' pages. That is all.

[Ominous]

I have the 2nd edition of WFRP. How similar are they?

[Misadventure]

Riddle of Steel.

Because you take your dice pool of d10s, and split it into attack and defense, then show your hands. Just like Vampire though not the 1st edition.

It makes me sad because after all the effort to emulate realistic medieval combat, they leave the tactical awareness skill of your character in the players hands. Your player vs player yomi.

So if you aren't good at guessing, your character will be bad at fighting.

[Ominous]

If I recall, Riddle of Steel doesn't handle 1 vs 2+ very well. As long as it is 1 vs 1, though, it's an interesting system.

[fatefan]

If I thought the PbtA engine was in any way translatable to MU*ing, I would be all over Fallen Empires (http://apocalypse-world.com/AW2ndEdFallenEmpiresPreview.pdf).

[Thenomain]

@Ominous said in Suitable system for a gritty fantasy game:

I have the 2nd edition of WFRP. How similar are they?

I don't know. I saw 600+ pages and balked. Yeah, I know WFRP is big, but something about it is inviting, readable. My brother likes reading RPGs as books, and WFRP is one of them. I flipped through Zweihander, saw "magboots" in one place and a page dedicated to "trinket value"--buying, selling, trading, really kind of a cool thing to see in a gritty realism game, but it was enough to make me wait, and wait I shall.

@fatefan said in Suitable system for a gritty fantasy game:

If I thought the PbtA engine was in any way translatable to MU*ing

I know. I've been musing on ApocEngine games and I can't see it reasonably scaling past 6 or 7.

[fatefan]

@Thenomain Part of me recognizes that limitation and moves on to consider other rulesets. Part of me wonders whether more than 2 people would ever play on this game anyway. (But then the issue becomes the extent to which players would or should take on per-scene MC duties...)

[Thenomain]

@fatefan

Apocalypse World is built like a Mud: There is zero question what you roll if you want to do X. Burning Wheel and it's adorable younger brother Mouse Guard are the same way. FreeMarket (another Luke Crane game) ditto. These are all games where if you want to affect the game world, you must engage the RPG systems exactly as written.

ApocWorld, unlike the rest, also demands that the PC roles are special, acknowledging that the characters tho they may be utterly screwed over by their own actions or the dice, are always the most interesting people in the world, that the world is their story and visa versa.

I was hoping when I started this post that I'd come up with some interesting conclusion or solution to use ApocEngine on a Mush, but that didn't happen. Ah well.

Edit: Oh yes, now I remember. I think people would love Apocalyose World, if not other PbtA systems, because of how utterly straightforward and brutally honest it is, which are two things that I think any gritty fantasy game should be: Straighforward and brutally honest.

[fatefan]

@Thenomain For sure. Despite my username, I've ironically played way more AW & PbtA games (mostly Dungeon World and Monsterhearts) than I have Fate.

The unique nature of each PC is certainly an obstacle, although some lend themselves more easily to being "one of many" (e.g., choppers or gunluggers) than others (how many hardholders would be unsustainable? probably even a single one for a MU*).

For me, I think one of the other big obstacles is making sure players feel empowered to contribute to the game world by inventing details (whether in the role of player or MC) that can then be used by others. A wiki is an easy way to try and help everyone keep tabs on this, assuming the playerbase buys into its use. But I don't know if they would.

[Ominous]

Mouse Guard is a great setting. I kind of want to steal it and use humans instead for it in order to file off the serial number of the IP.

Still the system itself is kind of specialized and board gaming, like many Burning Wheel derivatives, in that it ties the hands of the GMs in what they can do. At least that's how I remember it. It has been like six years or so since I last gave it a spin.

[fatefan]

Anyone played enough Shadow of the Demon Lord to speak to its potential utility here?

[golgoth]

@Ganymede I second the awesome of L5R for gritty.

[ZombieGenesis]

@fatefan I picked this game up last year and had high hopes. I don't remember much and I'm at work so can't grab the book but I remember being underwhelmed. The setting was great, character generation was fun, but I found the system overall lacking. At the moment I couldn't necessarily tell you why but I'll dig back into the book tonight and make another post later with more in depth thoughts.

[surreality]

@fatefan said in Suitable system for a gritty fantasy game:

For me, I think one of the other big obstacles is making sure players feel empowered to contribute to the game world by inventing details (whether in the role of player or MC) that can then be used by others. A wiki is an easy way to try and help everyone keep tabs on this, assuming the playerbase buys into its use. But I don't know if they would.

I'm banking on this for a current project. I think people will -- but I don't know for sure, either. Part of the reason I'm following through with it in spite of a case of the blahs playwise is just to find out, and see if the tools and systems and whatnot help work toward that end. If and when there's a verdict there, I'll let you know.

[Ominous]

Anyone know much about Symbaroum, the swedish RPG? It's supposed to be a grim-dark, gritty RPG.

[magee101]

There's a Dragon Age RPG out there, as well as an adaption of the rules for use in Generic fantasy settings rather than the Dragon Age setting. Not sure what it's called, can look it up on Google I bet though. Figured that might be worth mentioning, from what I remember the combat in that system helps with the 'gritty' and while Dragon Age's artstyle was a little cartoony, the theme of the games is very dark and gritty.

[Thenomain]

@magee101

AGE, by Green Ronin. I'm still not sure how I feel about the system.

[Misadventure]

Any definition, goals or traits to identify gritty?

[magee101]

@Misadventure said in Suitable system for a gritty fantasy game:

Any definition, goals or traits to identify gritty?

For me, gritty usually entails a noticeable darker tint to the theme, mechanics that allow for dismemberment or other gruesome acts, etc. A list of systems I would consider 'gritty' are as follows:

Cyberpunk 20XX: The cyberpunk games by Michael Pondsmith tend to be dark and desperate in theme, and the 203X systems have the Friday Night Firefight combat systems which are closely modeled to the lethality of real world weaponry.

Warhammer 40k: Space, human experimentation/modification, crazy Gods and powers, desperate fights, massive wars fought for little but land and more resources for the various factions trying to spread across the stars.

World of Darkness: Old is a bit more 'gritty' than New, as most of the theme is based around post-apocalyptic or near apocalyptic settings where people are desperate and the monsters are staring to win against humanity. New World is a bit more focused on the 'close to real life' simulation but the darker tones of vampires and werewolves and other splats (Geist, focused entirely around death, Possessed, humans possessed by demons and slowly losing their souls for more power).