Sin City Chronicles

Arkandel

But I dunno what kinds of well-mannered coders you are surrounded by, as for me there are F-bomb-filled obscenities grumbled, grunted and snorted every few minutes on a regular basis.

Thenomain

@Arkandel said in Sin City Chronicles:

@Thenomain Sub-sheets?

In Demon: Covers.
In Promethean: Refinements.

In Demon, your Covers have a set of stats (mostly social merits, but also the Cover trait) which exist alongside your Demonic sheet.

In Promethean, your Refinement says which Transmutations you can take, but different Refinements can retain access to different Transmutations.

In both cases, there are contextual 'sheets' that exist alongside your primary sheet. Your Ferrum instance of Corporeum is different than your Aes instance of Corporteum. Two Demonic Covers may have Allies, but they're differently purchased and maintained traits.

I'm having to go back to the basis of my code system—how traits are stored and accessed—to solve this new, completely annoying issue. I was going to make a "Cover" system, but seeing how Promethean does it, it's good to come up with a more generic system. Thus "sub-sheets".

Tempest

@Thenomain said in Sin City Chronicles:

@Arkandel said in Sin City Chronicles:

@Thenomain Sub-sheets?

In Demon: Covers.
In Promethean: Refinements.

In Demon, your Covers have a set of stats (mostly social merits, but also the Cover trait) which exist alongside your Demonic sheet.

In Promethean, your Refinement says which Transmutations you can take, but different Refinements can retain access to different Transmutations.

In both cases, there are contextual 'sheets' that exist alongside your primary sheet. Your Ferrum instance of Corporeum is different than your Aes instance of Corporteum. Two Demonic Covers may have Allies, but they're differently purchased and maintained traits.

I'm having to go back to the basis of my code system—how traits are stored and accessed—to solve this new, completely annoying issue. I was going to make a "Cover" system, but seeing how Promethean does it, it's good to come up with a more generic system. Thus "sub-sheets".

Promethean's mechanics honestly feel very wonky for a MU in general, nevermind what I can only assume is a massive pain in the ass for coding them. The basic idea of how some of the shit works is ill-suited for MUing. They basically have 'temporary' powersets (you actually lose your Transmutations and Alembics upon changing Refinement, unless you pay the 'Special' XP to keep them) which results in busywork +jobs for staff, the whole 'milestone' thing will either not really get used on MU or get abused by somebody with a friend willing to run them scenes specifically tailored to completing all of them (which basically equates to them getting their "powers" for free since you don't pay XP for in-refinement stuff, you just have to complete roles), prometheans /have/ to change their refinements regularly, there's the 'wasteland' mechanic, etc etc...

tl;dr Promethean looks fun but like a bit of nightmare for a MU, both in code and beyond.

Thenomain

@Tempest said in Sin City Chronicles:

They basically have 'temporary' powersets (you actually lose your Transmutations and Alembics upon changing Refinement, unless you pay the 'Special' XP to keep them) which results in busywork +jobs for staff

All staff will have to do, when I'm done, is change the Refinement.

Staff will have to tweak things a bit when someone 'unlocks' an Alembic, but automating that would be stupidly easy. (Move the stat from the sub-sheet to the main sheet.)

Many times I'm disappointed that I didn't think of making, e.g., xp spends able to trigger other code. Only so many ponies in the day, you know.

the whole 'milestone' thing will either not really get used on MU or get abused by somebody with a friend willing to run them scenes specifically tailored to completing all of them, prometheans /have/ to change their refinements regularly, there's the 'wasteland' mechanic, etc etc...

Now you're just looking for reasons to fail. I'm with you on this one, but look at the brainpower of everyone involved. It's not slight.

I can think of one situation I can guarantee it won't be used: If we don't even try.

Lithium

@Thenomain This is a major reason why the game I am working on right now is single sphere with mortal and mortal+.

I like 2e, but the way they did a lot of stuff is really annoying in some ways.

I'd probably go about it in a totally annoying way of just making attribute.name settings so that +sheet would look for that qualifier, it still is a mess though.

Tempest

@Lithium said in Sin City Chronicles:

I like 2e, but the way they did a lot of stuff is really annoying in some ways when trying to implement the games on MU, a medium they aren't the least bit designed for.

alt text

Something people need to remember. And then not be afraid to HR or flat out remove certain mechanics because of.

Lithium

@Tempest No, in some ways, not just on a MU. Look at the power creep problem. Vampire was plenty good. Then werewolf came along and had some crazy things that were kind of unfightable (I'm looking at you Spirit Conditions). Then Mage came along and simply broke everything (What, no, I got 3 successes and it's Praxis, so no, you don't get a resistance trait to reduce the power of this spell that will totally destroy you. Sorry.). Then there was Demon the I have to make 4 character sheets to play one character, and Promethean the I wanna be human! Now I'm human and I wanna be anything but! Then Beast, which I haven't really read much, but I hear is seriously OP. (Not even going to get into the WTFuckery of Skinchangers)

So, no, 2e is annoying in more ways than just trying to put it onto a MU* At least in my opinion.

Though to be fair, most of the problems come with trying to put more than one splat in play at the same time. Yay for single sphere games!

surreality

@Lithium WtF2e has all manner of suggestions about a pile of free NPC pack members (that would be offering support and services and potentially fighting with you), too. That was my personal first NOPE, WE WILL NOT BE DOING THAT call when such things were my call. I was chill if people wanted to pool points for a retainer or something (nobody ever did so far as I know) but there were not going to be dozens of free retainers floating about.

Thenomain

@Lithium said in Sin City Chronicles:

@Thenomain This is a major reason why the game I am working on right now is single sphere with mortal and mortal+.

Which "this"? Making things easy for staff? I mean, good and all, but if that single sphere is Promethean you'd still have to consider these things. I don't want to say that if I had finished the Covers System for EldritchMUX that it would've been more popular, but it still would have needed to be done.

It's just getting done years later.

Because I'm a sucker, and I'm still coding for you people in this broken code system that I know like the back of my hand.

Lithium

@Thenomain Not only making things easy for staff but also for players. It gives the game more focus. In my opinion when you have multiple sphere's the game gets diluted down and the stories are... tricky.

How do you reconcile what a werewolf can do, with what a vampire can do, with what a mage can do? What is challenging or difficult for one sphere is amazingly easy for the other and unfortunately it also makes it hard to shine and encourages massive optimization (I know, there will be those who do that anyway) in order to compete with the other splats.

As for the code? I am not as good a coder as you are. I freely admit that. So I like that in a single sphere I can focus on getting that /one/ thing right.

Thenomain

@Lithium said in Sin City Chronicles:

@Thenomain Not only making things easy for staff but also for players. It gives the game more focus. In my opinion when you have multiple sphere's the game gets diluted down and the stories are... tricky.

In the however long I played on Haunted Memories, I never found this to be true.

In the however long I played on The Reach, I never found this to be true.

(note, because I know someone is going to get snippy and pedantic on it like this is the point, which it is not: Of course things get diluted and stories get tricky, but I figure very little of it was because the game was multi-sphere and more because the game had characters of differing viewpoints sometimes working against each other's interests. Putting the words "By Night" on your game is a sure-fire way of saying "Generic American Bland City Of Generic American Blandness...By Night".)

What is challenging or difficult for one sphere is amazingly easy for the other and unfortunately it also makes it hard to shine and encourages massive optimization (I know, there will be those who do that anyway) in order to compete with the other splats.

Then you're running the wrong events, or running the events wrong. Let's take everyone's favorite "wah wah over-powered" whipping boy: Mage. Did you know that Mage has a counter-group that is just as capable as them but that much more organized? A lot of people forget this, either out of convenience or out of just plain forgetting.

In HM's Changeling sphere, we said "no" to non-Changelings a few times. There was a Changeling plot and Changeling politics. A few rare times a Vampire or Mage would try to manipulate a Changeling or three and they would be cut off or find out the hard way that when threatened with all-out sphere war, people will compromise fairly quickly.

Except for that one time where some Vampire players got a player (not a character, a player) banned from ever interacting with the Vampire sphere (not just them. the whole sphere) because they didn't like the consequences of their actions.

Anyhow, what I'm saying is that if you don't want to design a game that way, that's fine. Saying that it can't work is not true.

Lithium

@Thenomain I never said it can't work.

EDIT: There was a whole bunch of stuff there that was completely unrelated to what I said actually, and of course opinions vary but...

Where's all this holier than thou aggression coming from?

I'm running the wrong events? Please.

Also: Yeah cuz the Seers of the Throne interfere with /everything/ /every/ mage does on a spur of the moment thing by joining into another plot? Then it becomes all about the mage, in every other splat event that a mage tries to partake in.

Sometimes Theno, you make me just can't even.

Bobotron

@Lithium
It also feels like you're trying to articulate the issues with sandboxy ALL THE THINGS games, versus a single sphere game where it's easier to create focused plotlines as well? Which I totally agree on.

Thenomain

@Lithium said in Sin City Chronicles:

@Thenomain I never said it can't work.

You said it was tricky. I've often seen it work just fine. You want to do things another way because your beliefs, sure, but I've not seen it such a challenge that multi-sphere WoD games don't commonly work. (I didn't mention a few to keep things short.)

EDIT: There was a whole bunch of stuff there that was completely unrelated to what I said actually, and of course opinions vary but...

Where's all this holier than thou aggression coming from?

I'm running the wrong events? Please.

I ran bad events all the time. It's why I stopped. Why do you think this is anything more than an honest, if somewhat blunt, observation? If your goal is 'A', and your outcome is '!A', then something went wrong between conception and application. As it's not the game system, it's the application.

(edit, because I was edited under while replying):

Also: Yeah cuz the Seers of the Throne interfere with /everything/ /every/ mage does on a spur of the moment thing by joining into another plot? Then it becomes all about the mage, in every other splat event that a mage tries to partake in.

You know the bit above where I said that "someone is going to respond to this even though it's not the point"? I should have mentioned it on the second point too, apparently. "One example" shouldn't mean "all the time", but eh, there you go.

Lithium

@Thenomain My point was that you went off on a tangent, saying that I said all these things that I did not.

Tricky does !=impossible or that it can't be done, just that finding that balance is tricky. It can be difficult, and often misses the mark.

I have played on many a multi-sphere game an enjoyed it, but there are times when I want to play just Werewolf. Or Just Vampire. Or Just <insert splat here> and sometimes when trying to play that sphere on a multi-sphere game doesn't give the same feel because things are spread to thin.

Especially if the staff are not all fully comfortable with such rule sets.

I had to make a Harmony roll at -3 dice once, and the staffer just removed my harmony down 3 points... with no roll at all.

It's things like that which can make it feel wrong.

So yes, it /can/ be done, but if you don't say: "This sphere only for this plot." it can and will get diluted.

Thenomain

@Lithium said in Sin City Chronicles:

@Thenomain My point was that you went off on a tangent, saying that I said all these things that I did not.

My point was that you went off on a tangent, saying that things are tricky that are not.

Lithium

@Thenomain Alright. Your idea of tricky and mine are two totally different things.

I guess we'll just have to disagree. No point in continuing.

Arkandel

@Lithium said in Sin City Chronicles:

I have played on many a multi-sphere game an enjoyed it, but there are times when I want to play just Werewolf. Or Just Vampire. Or Just <insert splat here> and sometimes when trying to play that sphere on a multi-sphere game doesn't give the same feel because things are spread to thin.

Not every game can or should be all things to all people.

I like multisphere games. For starters it gives people more room since not every niche is super filled because the number of reasonable concepts is limited by definition, and for another it's fun to explore boundaries raised by miscommunication, manipulation or of course good ol' fashioned tribalism.

The danger with these games is having the spheres end up isolated from each other because then yes, it's an issue. If Changelings are discouraged from hanging out with Werewolves because reasons then the game with 20 players becomes a game with 10+10 players... which is a problem. But that can be solved, and I doubt the folks running this game will let it get to that.

Thenomain

@Arkandel

Really, my experience has it that a game with separated out spheres with 20 players has one sphere with 15 players and another sphere with 15 players, because people will play the sphere and therefore game they feel like that day. They also are able to keep in OOC contact with friends who play other spheres, giving them more reason to play that particular game.

I feel very confident about this because we keep needing to discuss Conflict Of Interest policies. If people played only one character on a game, no conflict.

Coin

@Thenomain said in Sin City Chronicles:

@Arkandel

Really, my experience has it that a game with separated out spheres with 20 players has one sphere with 15 players and another sphere with 15 players, because people will play the sphere and therefore game they feel like that day. They also are able to keep in OOC contact with friends who play other spheres, giving them more reason to play that particular game.

I feel very confident about this because we keep needing to discuss Conflict Of Interest policies. If people played only one character on a game, no conflict.

Conflict of Interest always seemed like a silly topic to me, but I come from a gaming culture where people didn't really do that.

I remember on a my first MU, Devilshire, where my character had been sexually (because Jack Moore + Romance was laughable) involved with someone, and then he had to go on a mission with another character played by the same person. And they got to talking about relationships and she gave him some advice about the relationship he had with the other character.

And staff. went. fucking. BATSHIT.

Meanwhile, I was like, 'man, chill out, this is absolutely nothing worth losing your heads about.'

And they kept RAILING until we actually had to remove that bit from the log.

Insane.