Make MSB great again!

[Arkandel]

If anyone does want the undertaking of keeping such a thread active I'll be happy to offer any amount of administrative support they need for that purpose.

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There is one more thing I wanted to bring up and this thread is as good a place to go over it as any.

The 'MSB effect' in regards to damaging/killing games has come up before, and I hate it. The very idea that this forum is important 'because it can bring down a MUSH', whether right or wrong, is abominable. It's not what the place is about, or for. If our ability to damage games was the measure of its success I'd be looking to pass it on to someone else today since that's not something I want to invest any time into.

Now and then dirty laundry is aired here. That's one of our functions, we give an uncensored floor from which to voice complaints without the possibility someone might silence them. As such MSB (and WORA before it) has created some embarrassment for bad players and staff in many MU* who perhaps wouldn't have been forced to face the consequences of their actions to the degree that they did, and who say their reputations being tarnished as a result. They might overstate the opposite but they care - recent events, laced with repeated condemnations of the fake news people post here on a MU*'s channels only confirm it.

But I really don't want that to be the forum's legacy. We're hobbyists in a tiny community, and our reputation should - maybe not now, but in the future - reflect the fact we genuinely like games, and that when we criticize them it's due to the fact we care. "Bringing games down is the polar opposite of that - which conversely we can't, that's an effect that's exaggerated at best - and definitely nothing to be proud of if we could.

Pardon the rant.

[Ganymede]

@arkandel said in Make MSB great again!:

The 'MSB effect' in regards to damaging/killing games has come up before, and I hate it. The very idea that this forum is important 'because it can bring down a MUSH', whether right or wrong, is abominable. It's not what the place is about, or for. If our ability to damage games was the measure of its success I'd be looking to pass it on to someone else today since that's not something I want to invest any time into.

There is no "MSB Effect." Any claim thereof is simply untrue.

There are countless examples of games that have persisted despite the best efforts of MSB, WORA, or SWOFA to take them down. To suggest otherwise, in my opinion, is erroneous at best and flat-out false at worst.

This place is the only place I'm aware of that serves as a media outlet. People promote, complain, and defame in equal measure. While it would be nice if people stick to known facts and honest opinions, that as a policy cannot be reasonably enforced without censorship.

This place is fine. Its members may not be, but this place is fine.

You know, except for the changes we're recommending here.

[Jennkryst]

@lotherio said in Make MSB great again!:

Oh, wait this takes work, and history has proven that any monitored list is just a lot of work that either is dropped by the roadside or just months behind like mushcode.com's list. Not monitored is just free-for-all on the mud sites (top mud sites, mudconnector), that while folks on those sites can critique and criticize in the their respective forums, there is no way for potential players to get freely offered critiques and criticisms.

You seem to forget just how OBSESSES MU culture has become with wikis. This will go amazingly.

[Arkandel]

@jennkryst it's trivial for me to setup a media wiki and only give edit access to a few reliable folks curating the content for the explicit purpose of updating links to MU*'s sites and MSB threads.

However it's probably more convenient to have it in a thread here, just so it stays in-house so to speak. Maybe. If a good idea comes up we can discuss it, I can set up anything we need (*) as needed.

(*) Remember - I'm good, but I'm lazy.

[Lotherio]

@jennkryst said in Make MSB great again!:

@lotherio said in Make MSB great again!:

Oh, wait this takes work, and history has proven that any monitored list is just a lot of work that either is dropped by the roadside or just months behind like mushcode.com's list. Not monitored is just free-for-all on the mud sites (top mud sites, mudconnector), that while folks on those sites can critique and criticize in the their respective forums, there is no way for potential players to get freely offered critiques and criticisms.

You seem to forget just how OBSESSES MU culture has become with wikis. This will go amazingly.

Prove me wrong, because I want an honest place that is up-to-date with active MU's that does not include a bajillion MUDS to swim through to find places.

[Lotherio]

@ganymede said in Make MSB great again!:

There is no "MSB Effect." Any claim thereof is simply untrue.

I find the inverse seems more true. Initial critique of a game tends to drive up traffic. People go to see just how 'true/untrue' a claim is, and barring that its more untrue than not, I've seen this increase populations. There is no such thing as bad publicity.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@ganymede said in Make MSB great again!:

Most importantly, police each other politely.

I know there are posts I would've flagged (in so many, many of those ad threads) if there were rules about being on-topic/being the Constructive Section definition of constructive. I think, for all the dumb on these boards, we do an OK job of policing each other in the Constructive section without much moderation, once there's been some agreement on what rules exist.

[Arkandel]

@three-eyed-crow Well, let's try doing that again then.

Just remember - the constructive section basically means we can say an idea is dumb, but not that the person is dumb.

In other words it doesn't mean we can't hurt anyone else's feelings if they just can't take criticism well.

[Sunny]

@arkandel

I agree with @Three-Eyed-Crow. Really all we need to do is have a sticky in the ad forum that says 'this is the rule: constructive like the constructive forum'. I don't think it's as much a case of even needing an actual rule so much as it is...okay, now we know what it's for, it's outlined what it's for, stay within that. The only thing we lack is an official 'do it this way'. The reason it gets like it does is because there isn't anything saying otherwise.

[faraday]

@arkandel said in Make MSB great again!:

Just remember - the constructive section basically means we can say an idea is dumb, but not that the person is dumb.

That, though, is the basic problem I have with MSB. Every single discussion boils down to people telling each other "your idea is dumb" (which is a very short trip to "you're dumb for not realizing that your idea is dumb") when most of it is actually just different perspectives/preferences/opinions. It's the vitriol. The vehemence. The "this is what's wrong with MUSHing" or "this is what's ruining our hobby" of "these players are the worst". People are entitled to those opinions, of course, but I fail to see how it resembles anything approximating "Constructive".

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@arkandel
I mean, I also still think the ad section needs to be reorganized and the commentary threads need to become their own thing, like other posters have mentioned (I definitely don't want to make it seem like I don't think this is necessary!). I'm more saying, the Constructive section hasn't been the problem lately and is generally respected without moderation because it's clear what does/doesn't go there. If there were similar expectations in the ad section, I don't recall them ever being established.

[saosmash]

It should be possible to say "Here is the issue I have with this idea" without saying "this idea is the worst thing in the world" and yet.

[Arkandel]

@faraday said in Make MSB great again!:

That, though, is the basic problem I have with MSB. Every single discussion boils down to people telling each other "your idea is dumb" (which is a very short trip to "you're dumb for not realizing that your idea is dumb") when most of it is actually just different perspectives/preferences/opinions. It's the vitriol. The vehemence. The "this is what's wrong with MUSHing" or "this is what's ruining our hobby" of "these players are the worst". People are entitled to those opinions, of course, but I fail to see how it resembles anything approximating "Constructive".

It's impossible to objectively separate the two, that's the thing. Someone has to make the call whether an idea is being criticized properly or if the poster is going too far, which can be shortform for censorship.

I can't even crowdsource this. If I start counting flagged posts then we're just handing the keys out to cliques who coordinate to effectively place gag orders.

Maybe there's a better answer here, but until we come up with it, although I agree and I'd love for us to be more constructive instead of radiating pure negativity at each other over what seem to be thin reasons at times, I don't want to go too far with moderation.

But that's why this thread exists. Come up with that better answer, people!

[faraday]

@arkandel said in Make MSB great again!:

It's impossible to objectively separate the two, that's the thing. Someone has to make the call whether an idea is being criticized properly or if the poster is going too far, which can be shortform for censorship.

Yep. And I'm okay with that. I'd prefer censorship to every single thread turning into a flame war. It's exhausting. It's not fun. It's the reason I have "quit" this place several times. (Obviously I keep coming back like an idiot because it's the only game in town but that's a separate issue.)

Discourse is the forum software I used for the AresMUSH forums. It has very robust tools for community moderation, including fine-grained trust levels, etc. It also has great guidelines for what constitutes "Civil Discourse" including things like always trying to improve the conversation and be agreable even when you disagree.

I realize I am in a decided minority in this opinion, and that you don't want to play moderator. Both of those things are fine. But you asked what I would do differently and I answered.

[Thenomain]

@faraday said in Make MSB great again!:

It's the vitriol. The vehemence. The "this is what's wrong with MUSHing" or "this is what's ruining our hobby" of "these players are the worst". People are entitled to those opinions, of course, but I fail to see how it resembles anything approximating "Constructive".

I would like to support my fellow, here.

This makes the following harder for me to say:

@ganymede said in Make MSB great again!:

But, yes, this. Keep advertising free-and-clear of negativity. Open up a Yelp! section for honest/dishonest reviews of the game. Mark clearly.

But allow the Advertisement thread to be filled with sycophants just because they're being positive about the game? How is that useful for the hobby?

And a Game Reviews forum would either have the same problem as the Advertisement threads in that there's no clear distinction between it and the Hog Pit.

Most importantly, police each other politely.

To police each other, there needs to be a respect of the views of others. I also want my pony, Gany, but I'm not seeing this good neighbor approach lately. Some people have told me they've never seen it, but that's the burden of being an optimist.

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edit:

@Arkandel: It's not censorship if it's against the rules. We have even back on Wora been able to recognize when something has gone too far, and it was a hell of a lot easier splitting threads back then than it is with this new system. What we had on Wora that we didn't really have on Soapbox is someone to act.

[Ganymede]

@thenomain said in Make MSB great again!:

I think that the advertiser should have control of what goes into their advertisement. That seems reasonable to me. If an advertiser wants to wipe an entire thread from their thread, let them. And if sycophants come to trumpet, so be it. I think it's reasonable for the average visitor to the Internet know that not all positive reviews are objective.

That's why I think there should be a separate game review place. That's where the advertiser cannot control what's being said, good or bad. Create a new forum for them, even.

As for respect for others, that's something that cannot really be policed except by ourselves.

[Thenomain]

@ganymede said in Make MSB great again!:

That's why I think there should be a separate game review place. That's where the advertiser cannot control what's being said, good or bad. Create a new forum for them, even.
As for respect for others, that's something that cannot really be policed except by ourselves.

Except this is how I see this playing out:

1. I think this place is great! Let me post to the Advertisement Forum!
2. I think this place sucks! Let me post to the Review Forum!

I don't at all think that it's this black-and-white, but for the sake of illustration as to why I think the attempt would rise to more and not less biased channels of communication. Fracturing the discussion diminishes it.

If an advertiser wants to wipe an entire thread from their thread, let them. And if sycophants come to trumpet, so be it. I think it's reasonable for the average visitor to the Internet know that not all positive reviews are objective.

No review is objective; an objective review is called a "fact sheet", and even then....

Platonic ideals aside, I strongly believe that a discussion is always better than expecting everyone to be on the same page.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

In my ideal world, the threads in the ad forum become locked except to the original poster (who can theoretically post updates) and the board admins (who can theoretically do necessary maintenance and link things). Nobody else posts in them. Not sycophants, not critics, nobody.

Whether this is what anyone else wants idk but it's what I envision when I talk about this.

ETA: And I actually don't know if this is possible with this forum software, so this may only exist in my fantasy world.

[saosmash]

@three-eyed-crow That would work great with the addition of the review forum for people to write in-depth reviews and detailed impressions of games.

[faraday]

@thenomain said in Make MSB great again!:

Fracturing the discussion diminishes it.

So we have the ad thread, for the ad. Then if folks want to discuss the game, good and bad, that can go into a review thread. Unless of course it gets so hateful that it gets split off into the hog pit. Now there's three threads for one game... sounds like fun (not).

Or we could just say that this notion of a sacrosanct "ad" thread is silly and just have "Game Reviews" where folks can start the review with "Look how awesome my game is" or someone else can start a review with "Worst steak ever" and let the discussion proceed.

ETA: I'd be fine with what @Three-Eyed-Crow said about the ad thread just being for an ad, but I didn't think this forum s/w could do that easily.