What's That Game's About?

[Coin]

@AmishRakeFight, @Creepy

See, I think he meant the people who want to be playing actual vikings.

[Coin]

@HelloRaptor said:

@Miss-Demeanor said:

See, I liked that I could take extra Kiths if I wanted a little extra something.
<snip>
So... meh to 2E Changeling. Looks more like they're taking -away- possibilities with the shift in Kith/Seeming rather than opening them up.

Agreed. While I'm interested to see how it plays out, the Dual Kith thing seemed to open up a whole world of variation that was kind of fun, if I could get past the victim origin story in Changeling.

I'm still not sure how a change from "Kith A always belongs to Seeming B" to "Kith A is different depending on which Seeming you combine it with" is less varied. Not to mention we don't actually know if they're getting rid of Dual Kiths, or maybe changing it in some way, or keeping it, or whatever.

Anyway!

[Miss Demeanor]

Okay. For the third time. No Kith 'always' belongs to any Seeming. Because Dual Kith. It let you pick and choose which of the 7945 flavors of Changeling you wanted to play. No Contract (aside from Court Contracts) was ever closed off to a player because of the Kith they chose. Or the Seeming. Picking certain Kiths could gain you -affinity- costs for a specific Contract, but you weren't ever told 'no, you cannot has this Contract, you are not X'.

2E Changeling will not likely be able to keep even all of the Kiths in the CtL core book since they are making Kith take the place of Seeming. I'm going to bet there will be no Dual Kith as there was never a 'at the heart of things... you are two different things'. Maybe a Dual Seeming. SO. Chances are good that the bulk of the Kiths people enjoyed? Going away. Contracts that were available to anyone with the xp? Now dictated by Seeming. How is this more varied?

@HelloRaptor While I can take or leave the CtL PTSD origin story, I still prefer it to CtD's 'we're magic fairies and brownies and elves, etc. from another wooooooooooorld' origin story. It went from Disney to Sin City. I'm okay with that.

[Coin]

@Miss-Demeanor

You seem to have the ability to judge things absolutely from incomplete data. It's not an ability I envy.

And fine, Kiths didn't always belong to a certain Seeming. But only because you could circumvent that doesn't mean the core concept of Kiths belonging to Seemings isn't true, and it's in fact further strengthened by the Dual Kith Merit costing more if you want an out-of-seeming Kith. Our interpretations differ. This isn't a surprise or even a bad thing. Also, IIRC (which I may not, admittedly) Dual Kith was an optional Merit, which would invalidate it as something integral to the game, regardless of how many people liked it. But again, I may be misremembering.

We have no idea how they're actually going to go about it, how many Kiths there's going to be, or how much of a difference picking a different Seeming for the same Kith is going to make. Ascribing conceptual value to something because of what you call it is silly. So maybe Shadowsouls aren't available as Shadowsouls anymore. That doesn't mean that there won't be something that mirrors or represents the same type of Changeling.

I've never seen Kiths as something static and formal. In fact, no character I have ever played has used Kith names to talk about themselves or anyone else. My Shadowsoul never said, "I'm a Shadowsoul, what did you expect?" Nor did he look at his Fireheart Motleymate and say, "God, you Firehearts, always so cray with the fiyah". To me, Kiths were guidelines as to what your character was in a distilled, mechanical way.

Maybe we differ in that interpretation and that's why I don't see the change as such a huge deal; I'm pretty sure I'm going to be able to figure out whatever type of character within the norms of Changeling I want to play in the new system. Not only that, but from what I've read (that is to say, the miniscule amount of information I have), Kiths seem to be pretty simple, so making new ones shouldn't be too difficult.

You seem to be hung up on not being able to buy any sort of Contract you want. Again, from what I've read, there's still going to be universal Contracts and the like. In fact, we don't even really know what Contracts are going to look like, so I'm less than concerned until such a thing becomes clear, because maybe the new structure of Contracts makes your concerns moot.

But I get it. You really don't like 2E. It sucks, but I can understand the sentiment of "they changed it now it sucks". I don't share it, in this instance, just like I don't share your concerns. But I can understand it.

[HelloRaptor]

@Coin

Kiths seem to be pretty simple, so making new ones shouldn't be too difficult.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Coin]

Oh, shut up, @HelloRaptor. I happen to like making shit up. :d

[HelloRaptor]

Yeah, me too.

But just for a moment, make a list of the things that are even just intended to be made up by players. 'Here are some examples, now make up your own!'

Now think of how often that is allowed in any appreciable way, or the frequency with which it is allowed but ends in tears and drama and the gnashing of teeth, no matter how simple and straightforward it might be.

Then try not to laugh at the bit I quoted before.

[Pyrephox]

@HelloRaptor said:

Yeah, me too.

But just for a moment, make a list of the things that are even just intended to be made up by players. 'Here are some examples, now make up your own!'

Now think of how often that is allowed in any appreciable way, or the frequency with which it is allowed but ends in tears and drama and the gnashing of teeth, no matter how simple and straightforward it might be.

Then try not to laugh at the bit I quoted before.

Where this is going to start getting really fun is that new Changeling apparently is going to rely on all custom Courts that are specialized for the city they exist in. While I LOVE everything I've heard about from GMC Changeling so far (and really hope that Dual Kith dies a lonely, unloved death forever), I can already see the wails and drama from Changeling players about custom Courts. Or, worse, I can see everyone just ploddingly recreating the Seasonal Courts or whatever old ideas exist.

Still looking forward to it, though. Changeling is the best game, especially when you embrace the nWoD and focus on urban fantasy and horror rather than the endless bitching about who IS the prettiest prince/ss in all the freehold.

[HelloRaptor]

@Pyrephox

and really hope that Dual Kith dies a lonely, unloved death forever

You die in a fire.

Changeling is the best game

YOU DIE IN A FIRE.

Admittedly it's better than Vampire and Werewolf. And Geist. And Demon. And Hunter. Huh. Okay, so it's pretty far up there as far as nwod goes I guess.

[Coin]

@HelloRaptor

No, I understand why you laughed. But I try to see things beyond just the MU ramifications. That said, if you have the type of staff that's going to be close-minded regarding that sort of thing when the game actually says to do it that way, then you have more problems than that, IMO:

[Arkandel]

@Pyrephox said:

Still looking forward to it, though. Changeling is the best game, especially when you embrace the nWoD and focus on urban fantasy and horror rather than the endless bitching about who IS the prettiest prince/ss in all the freehold.

That's the part that truly puts me off about Changeling. I mean the theme is pretty liberating - the sum of all stories is literally at your disposal to use as a toolbox - but I just can't stand how (some) players act in regards to achieving ranks. I don't mean the IC politics, those come with the territory, I mean the OOC cut-throat hard feelings superdrama that comes with it. Especially right as spheres open because, I guess, those people feel everything is up for grabs so they better grab it.

No, thank you.

[Coin]

@Arkandel, this is why I support NPCs holding the important positions at least at first. Makes people have to work for it and not just take the positions because they're available.

"Oh, I guess I'll just take this leadership position since no one is doing it." What?

[Bennie]

| If someone wants to play a viking-themed character, why not? Its what they want to do and it doesn't really hurt anything.

It hurts suspension of disbelief.

| If you don't want to deal with that sort of character, don't RP with them.

Not an option when they take over an entire sphere of the game, or more.

| Is a viking really that far afield, all things considered?

Yes, it is.

[Arkandel]

@Bennie This sounds oddly specific - more like a peeve. Did you run into a Viking theme-dominated sphere or something?

[Coin]

The vikings are coming, THE VIKINGS ARE COMING! AAAAAH!

[surreality]

@Bennie said:

| If someone wants to play a viking-themed character, why not? Its what they want to do and it doesn't really hurt anything.

It hurts suspension of disbelief.

| If you don't want to deal with that sort of character, don't RP with them.

Not an option when they take over an entire sphere of the game, or more.

| Is a viking really that far afield, all things considered?

Yes, it is.

Then allow me to expand your reality some, @Bennie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbtjJ5P1ZjA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtSOtVZJEFo

This isn't exactly a theme that plenty of people don't have a major interest in in the really real world -- enough of one to adopt aspects of the lifestyle in some fashion. That's really a thing.

That characters in WoD might do the same thing is such an impossibly alien notion? I don't even know where to begin, here.

[Pyrephox]

@HelloRaptor said:

@Pyrephox

and really hope that Dual Kith dies a lonely, unloved death forever

You die in a fire.

Changeling is the best game

YOU DIE IN A FIRE.

Admittedly it's better than Vampire and Werewolf. And Geist. And Demon. And Hunter. Huh. Okay, so it's pretty far up there as far as nwod goes I guess.

And now I admit that I don't like Mage (old OR new) and I get to burn THREE TIMES.

But, basically, I think it's best game because it comes the closest to what I want out of horror/urban fantasy. Mortals aren't entirely deprotagonized into slaves or those Who Must Never Be Told - Changeling has some of the best opportunities for mortal/"super" collaborations, and some of the most horrific villains to fight against - evil fetches wearing your face, subtle and merciless Fae, lunatics and quislings, not to mention all the variety that exists in hobs and oneriophages that can be a threat to mortals and changelings both. It's one of the few WoD lines where you can /completely ignore/ the idea of freeholds and Onyx Path's ill-conceived political structures, and still have huge amounts of meat to delve into, just with the idea of Lost trying to keep their city safe from the Fae.

(Also, you don't HAVE to play Lost as perpetually traumatized victims of horrific rape and torture. A perfectly valid Lost concept is someone who knowingly traded away seven years of life to be a Fae companion in exchange for some sort of miracle and considers it a worthy bargain, or someone who had a great time with their Keeper...but has now been abandoned because their Keeper was bored of them, and is realizing that they can't go back to the world as they knew it, and aren't willing to make that bargain again, knowing that the Fae can never return their feelings. Even someone who cold-bloodedly made a bargain with the Fae for knowledge, /knowing/ it would change them. There are more stories than kidnap victim, and more horrors than the durance!)

[Wizz]

@Thenomain said:

I see nothing about this in Werewolf to insult, but to explain what it seems to be. I have found nothing in any of the nWerewolf books to say:

regular dude/dudette who has some bizarre part-time obligations

Nothing. Not even the core book, which I believe is the only book that should really matter.

I'd say in response, "Nothing? You mean, aside from almost every piece of chapter fiction and the intro/outro piece, every member of Max Roman's pack, a ton of Signs of the Moon, etc. etc. etc." but at this point I feel like I'm beating this into the ground and we just don't get the same things out of the books, which is fine.

@Pyrephox said:

A perfectly valid Lost concept is someone who knowingly traded away seven years of life to be a Fae companion in exchange for some sort of miracle and considers it a worthy bargain, or someone who had a great time with their Keeper...but has now been abandoned because their Keeper was bored of them.

Just out of curiosity, where is the Durance portrayed without at least some element of abuse/horror in the books?

[Arkandel]

@Wizz said:

Just out of curiosity, where is the Durance portrayed without at least some element of abuse/horror in the books?

You are looking at it too literally, I think. The material as written tells us what's expected, common, done. When it comes to characters, portrayal always trumps concept. In other words it's not (just) what you do, it's how you do it. Someone could take a character right out of the pages of the book and be horrible while another could make something which is not and make people think this is how the game should be played.

In this case one could focus on the line between Loyalist and Lost until it's blurry to make such a character; maybe someone who felt neglected and tossed aside, filled with arrogance and wrath to be treated like a broken toy, but who thoroughly loved the time they spent in Faerie. They would never go back now, their ego and belief system would not allow it any longer, and they would do whatever's in their power to harm their former benefactors or their agents, but the abuse wasn't in the keeping, it was in the discarding. Play it human enough, flawed enough, and you got yourself a concept.

It's not black and white.

[Wizz]

@Arkandel
That's literally (ba-dum-psh) the argument that was being made about Werewolf, by the by-- "this is not word for word in the books." Not necessarily against it, I get it, but it sometimes seems like there's a lot of confirmation bias when we're talking about our favored and less-favored games.

And I can see it, I guess, the Fae are chaotic and inconstant and not every single abduction would have been a non-stop horror show. I think portraying the Durance as somehow magical and worthwhile and the Changeling as too huffy starts to wander a little too far into Dreaming's "magical princess tea party" territory for my tastes, but very possibly I just haven't spent enough time actually playing Lost.

EDIT: It just strikes me as a little weird because the horror of the Durance is something the Lost typically have in common. Even the word they use, Durance, has nothing but negative connotations-- it literally means incarceration or inprisonment. You don't talk about your "durance" at Disneyland as a child.