Regarding administration on MSB
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@arkandel (What I meant by handling things yourself was more in regard to dealing with any controversy related to Auspice using MOD VOICE, just to be clear)
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@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:
To me the ability to stick together even when we don't like each other very much is the reason this place exists.
Huh. That's a really good/interesting point. A lot. It's not what I would have said the reason is, but I think you're actually dead on accurate. Thanks.
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@surreality what does bored have anything to do with it. I was responding to that statement in my reply. I don’t care about bored (sorry dude). But! I did express my dismay over behavior that occurred earlier, on multiple fronts, from the mod team. Should I assume you were telling me to shut up and go make my own board? Maybe, but I assumed not. I think there are any number of us that when a certain subject comes up are groaning internally and anticipate Ye Olde Retelling Of Stories From Bygone Eras and Events that we’ve heard a thousand times over sometimes literally decades. I just don’t see discussing moderation (which is a pretty fresh subject for this crowd) is any different than the subjects I mentioned previously.
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@sunny said in Regarding administration on MSB:
@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:
To me the ability to stick together even when we don't like each other very much is the reason this place exists.
Huh. That's a really good/interesting point. A lot. It's not what I would have said the reason is, but I think you're actually dead on accurate. Thanks.
Agreed 1000 percent. (Which autocorrect keeps trying to change to pervert.)
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@bored said in Regarding administration on MSB:
@wolfs Eh. If it was the first offense, I'd agree with you.
@surreality said in Regarding administration on MSB:
It's worth note that not everyone agrees there's any offense here in the first place. If there was universal agreement on that front, this would be an entirely different conversation.
This is the sequence of conversation you replied to. It follows quite clearly.
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@mietze said in Regarding administration on MSB:
@sunny said in Regarding administration on MSB:
@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:
To me the ability to stick together even when we don't like each other very much is the reason this place exists.
Huh. That's a really good/interesting point. A lot. It's not what I would have said the reason is, but I think you're actually dead on accurate. Thanks.
Agreed 1000 percent. (Which autocorrect keeps trying to change to pervert.)
Even autocorrect knows.
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@mietze said in Regarding administration on MSB:
Should I assume you were telling me to shut up
Just to be clear, I wouldn't have made a thread like this if I wanted people to shut up. It's kiiind of a meta-discussion to talk about a forum on the forum, but I think some good points can still be made.
Personally I much prefer threads about characters, discrimination in games or kitten armies. But I understand this stuff is important to (some of) you, and so I'm trying to take input and respond as much as I can. For starters an excellent point was made earlier on about getting defensive and circling the wagons when people disagreed with administrative decisions, and I cut that shit out... for the most part.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@sunny hey now!
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@mietze ABOUT ME. IT WAS CALLING ME NAMES.
(sorry caps but srsly augh!)
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@sunny truly autocorrect knows my intent more than I know myself.
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@arkandel So will there at any point be a more punitive action taken against anyone that sees fit to drag Hog Pit nonsense into the rest of the forum? I mean, obviously I opted into the Hog Pit so I don't mind it nearly as much as those that called for it to be made opt-in only. But it seems rather silly to have had that huge discussion about it, complete with its own shit-flinging and arguments, and gone to all the bother of making it so... if people are just going to drag it right back out into the rest of the forum. I admit, I expect a certain amount of snide cattiness even outside of the Hog Pit, but its certainly starting to leak out more and more. This particular instance that is still going on didn't even start mildly constructive, it went straight to targeted assault against another person. And was quickly chimed in on. Very little of it has been even mildly constructive, and what has been has quickly been drowned out in increasingly scathing back and forth arguments about who is or is not doing/saying the right thing.
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@miss-demeanor said in Regarding administration on MSB:
@arkandel So will there at any point be a more punitive action taken against anyone that sees fit to drag Hog Pit nonsense into the rest of the forum? I mean, obviously I opted into the Hog Pit so I don't mind it nearly as much as those that called for it to be made opt-in only. But it seems rather silly to have had that huge discussion about it, complete with its own shit-flinging and arguments, and gone to all the bother of making it so... if people are just going to drag it right back out into the rest of the forum.
Yeah, I agree. Ganymede's Law will take care of the written part of the rules when that's ready, and we do plan to have a 'gray zone' that sits between Constructive and the Hog Pit for reviews and the such, as well. And I do want some of the targeted group actions ("we don't like you in particular, person, so everything you say will be attacked on sight!") to stop. Dogpiling is definitely on my radar as well.
What I'm kinda pleased about is that folks from all sides of these arguments seem equally pissed off at times. It probably means something's being done right.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@arkandel It does, at least, prove that there is no 'hivemind'... or rather, that there are many smaller hiveminds. Or cliques, if you prefer. That said, I am glad to have three relatively disparate individuals watching over the forum. It gives a better allowance for 'gut-checking' against someone that you know has differing views. Never a bad thing. Hell, if I could find that on a MU, I might actually try my hand at playing again!
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@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:
And I do want some of the targeted group actions ("we don't like you in particular, person, so everything you say will be attacked on sight!") to stop. Dogpiling is definitely on my radar as well.
Do you think that's what this is? How would, exactly, negative mod behavior (or, alternately, shitty normal poster behavior) even be addressed under that rubric? Discount this case if you like, there was quite a bit more consensus on the first time around being a screw-up. How do you that consensus if multiple people can't express that they disagree with the action?
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@bored The difference would be not multiple people voicing concern on one issue in one place at one time, but of a specific posse following a person around to grief that person regardless or nearly regardless of what they are doing or talking about wherever they are on the forum over time, from what I gather.
Which is absolutely something that has occurred and continues to occur.
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@bored If I had an answer I'd tell you.
My best guess so far is to appeal to people's sense of fairness, and ask them to not do to other people what they wouldn't tolerate themselves.
Maybe that means I'm being naive. It's what I have though.
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@bored Likely because people haven't been discussing the action nearly as much as they've been discussing the person behind the action? Look back at this thread. A lot of those arguments and 'dog-piles'? They weren't about the action, they were very clearly about the person who supposedly isn't fit to be a moderator after two possible mistakes. A more constructive way to approach it might be to bring up the post that so offends, and state only that they don't believe the post was necessary/pertinent/needed/whatever. Instead, there was a pages long argument over Auspice's personal behavior, both with and without the moderator hat, including critical and non-helpful speculations regarding her intent behind multiple posts. People have taken personal offense to a general announcement made that, while perhaps premature, was in no way so heinous as to be deserving of multiple personal attacks or calls for her removal as a moderator.
Edit: Looking back, some of this post comes off high-handed. My apologies to anyone that felt I was being condescending, that was not my intent.
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Dog-Piling can happen when two dozen people go into a thread to say nothing more onerous as, "I don't like this."
Dog-Piling can happen when a vocal minority repeats the apparent offense over and over.
But it always happens to a single person, and it involves repetition of the same criticism to the point where it can be called an attack.
And attacks are something that should not be outside the Hog Pit. And I certainly don't trust most of you lot to not participate. Most of you.
#notallsaosmash
Even under the guise of "but I had a valid point", there is such a thing as context, a time and place and a way to bring it up.
I had more of a point here but I forgot what it was. Don't Participate In Dog-Piles.
<themoreyouknow.gif>
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@thenomain I think that's really fair, both as a definition and as a thing that we (including me) should not do.
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@thenomain said in Regarding administration on MSB:
Don't Participate In Dog-Piles.
What about a puppy pile?
(totally just wanted an excuse to post corgi puppy.)
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
