Regarding administration on MSB

[Tempest]

@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

So, for a mild dose of necromancy I wanted to address this here:

@tempest said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

I would like to report @Ganymede for moving this thread and committing treachery most foul. She has let the nazis win.

@Arkandel, don't let this injustice stand!

I know you're half joking but to give a quick answer, which can cover others' concerns as well. Please keep in mind I'm tired, and my ideal evening does not include MSB. It's the time I can actually play games or watch some basketball on TV, so if it doesn't make sense I'll go over this again in the morning.

The concern here seems to be that if a thread is in the Hog Pit it's 'hidden' behind the opt-in wall, and thus invisible to casual viewers. That makes our system prone to being played by malevolent posters who want to hide their dirty laundry from those viewers.

However MSB isn't a court of public opinion. It's not wikileaks for MU*. That's one of the roles we serve, and I think we've done pretty damn well in that way for a long time, but it's not our goal. Its purpose is not, to coin a term I never agreed with but have often seen, there to 'shut down games'. Not only does it not have that power, it shouldn't.

MSB is here for the MU* community, all of it or as much as we can have, and not just for the popcorn-and-lolz masses hoping to see someone burn a bit more in the court of public opinion. There are those - there are many - who don't want to read massive flamewars, fuck-you memes and personal attacks; that's precisely what the Hog Pit is there to do, it's a compromise between the two crowds.

So to actually address your issue (generic 'you' now, since it's not just you voicing it), if you think a thread ought to stay out of the Hog Pit then don't turn it into a dumpster fire. It will stay out of there, then.

The poster we all know was a staff alt/friend from UH didn't foul the thread up. Sure, he/she stirred the pot, but I didn't see any particular foul language in there. We stooped to that level ourselves - we did that - and in doing so, the thread went away.

So can someone play us like that? Use the system to hide their dirty laundry? Yes - by design. And yes - if we allow them to. We don't have to. If this guy had started shouting profanities that novelty account would have been banned within minutes, believe me. So ... take some responsibility as well here, please. If you want a thread to stay out of the Hog Pit, don't make sure it ends up exactly there.

Now, having said aaaaall that.... someone pointed out to me we could have split the thread better. We could have not moved the entire thing but only select posts.

I think that's something we can improve on, yes. It's just a matter of every admin figuring out this forum's ins and outs, not to mention having the time to do so. So to address @Tempest's actual complaint, I back Gany 100% here - it was objectively the right call to make - but I'll also see that we all us admins get some practice using our vast powers for which you hate and fear us , since we could have split up the nasty parts of the thread and left the rest up for public consumption.

If you have thoughts to share please do so. I actually felt we had been doing something good here - there were two cases of games lately where staff abused its own players and protected themselves which we didn't allow it to happen. That is a healthy sign.

Thanks for reading. I'll catch up on y'all tomorrow, my Tauren paladin needs some new boots.

So, what exactly is your problem?

You're saying Enarei's posts were fine.

@enarei said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

What is entertaining is the fact accusations were made. Rebukes to said accusations with log proof were gives. People on this forum deny that the log says it. Log Quote with Line is given. People still deny it as fact even though the log is not Staff Property but the property of the player's friend. You people are honestly pathetic. You bash a game and people with no proof. When proof is given to the contrary you deny that proof and call it a lie or you redirect to something else. Are your lives so pathetic that this is all you have to do? Fabricate drama to make you feel special? I honestly feel sorry for you. And with the proof in front of your eyes you still do not see it. Anyway I am out. Talking here holds nothing productive with closed minded drama queens.

If that's not "uncivil" IDK what is.

But apparently a gif of "go fuck yourself" is the end of the world?

You guys seriously need to abandon ship on this moderation thing, because you are fucking taking different stances on it every day.

[Tempest]

@ganymede said in United Heroes is Literally Worse than Hitler.:

I'm going to say this once before I move this thread.

If you're not going to even attempt to adhere to rules you know about, you're really not going to be welcome here much longer.

I hope I am clear as crystal.

Furthermore, I am not really cool with this post, at all. Or with this 'shut up or I'll ban you' being a casual comment from somebody who is a mod on the board.

What exactly have I done that is so horrible, please inform me?

Some fucking "fuck you" gifs?

It's kind of weird how some sockpuppet shows up and in every other post is calling everybody on the board an idiot and various other insults, and @Arkandel apparently doesn't see that as a problem, but I say "fuck off" and now I'm apparently like 1 step from getting banned for making a thread with links to the hogpit threads?

[Ganymede]

@tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Furthermore, I am not really cool with this post, at all. Or with this 'shut up or I'll ban you' being a casual comment from somebody who is a mod on the board.

What part of that post was intended to be a casual comment? It's not a casual comment, and it wasn't phrased as one.

What exactly have I done that is so horrible, please inform me?

C'mon, really?

You toe the line. You've always toed the line. You know damn well what you're doing, but if I would have to say it plainly, then you're deliberately doing shit in order to test people's patience.

If you want to sell the idea that you had no idea that creating a topic called "United Heroes is Literally Worse Than Hitler" in the Mildly Constructive area, so be it; however, your actions belie your claim to innocence or ignorance. You could have picked any other kind of innocuous title, but, no, you decided to go with "United Heroes is Literally Worse Than Hitler".

Not "Links to other United Heroes threads."

Not "Hot Topics on United Heroes Banned by Mods on this Forum!"

Not "Lurid Undie Weasels Form Border Guard Against Interesting Stuff on United Heroes."

No. Hitler. Hitler is what you picked.

C'mon.

Just, stop. You know what you did. Just don't do it again, all right?

And that's my casual comment on the matter.

[Tempest]

@ganymede Again, I did that because YOU are a fucking useless pile of shit as a mod and moved an entire thread to the hogpit.

When @Arkandel literally just said that apparently @Enarei's constant stream of insults aimed at everybody were fine, which means.....You guys moved it because of my 'fuck off' gif?

That's pretty absurd, given how tame it was in comparison to @Enarei's overall behavior, and it's increasingly apparent YOU have some vendetta against me.

[faraday]

@arkandel I think splitting the thread would have been a great compromise. It was civil and constructive for the first page or so, so that part of the thread is OK. Then it veered off into a debate about private channels that really should have been a thread of its own (but I think everyone - myself included - was just too lazy to create one). It's only when the defenders started stirring the pot that everyone got all riled up and turned the thread into a dumpster fire. Those posts could've just been split off into the existing hog pit UH thread or a new one.

I have no interest in silencing legitimate constructive criticism of any game.
I just don't want to sift through pages of "F You" "No You!" posts. There's a reason I'm not in the Pit Crew.

[Ganymede]

@tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Again, I did that because YOU are a fucking useless pile of shit as a mod and moved an entire thread to the hogpit.

You could have done a myriad of other things. You elected to do as you did. Other members have been polite enough to actually offer suggestions as to where to fork the topic, and that's what I'm working on right now.

I don't agree with Arkandel's assessment of the situation. You're right: Enarei starts up shit on Page 10, albeit in a way that begins with some rational talk. The topic wasn't moved because of anything you did; it was moved because it collectively had wandered into Hog Pit land.

If I'm a useless fucking pile of shit because I'm not all-too-familiar with the admin commands, so be it. In the past, entire topics had been moved; here, there appeared to be a very limited amount of constructive material related to the topic, mostly because it seems clear that United Heroes' staff doesn't intend to change or fix anything.

As a reminder, you're in the Mildly Constructive area right now.

[Tempest]

@faraday said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I just don't want to sift through pages of "F You" "No You!" posts. There's a reason I'm not in the Pit Crew.

See, I am fine with this sentiment.

However, the "mods" here are doing a really fucking weird job of shuffling their stance on it.

@Enarei's behavior was incredibly toxic, insulting, and uncivil. But @Arkandel literally just said that's apparently fine for mildly constructive.

So the line is being drawn...what, at the word 'fuck'?

Call a dozen people idiots, etc, and you're fine. Just don't say 'fuck you'?

[faraday]

@tempest Moving my ETA to a double-post because I was too slow.

I agree with you that Enarei's posts became equally hostile when the name-calling started. It wasn't just the GIFs. But I can only speak for myself there.

[Tempest]

@ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Again, I did that because YOU are a fucking useless pile of shit as a mod and moved an entire thread to the hogpit.

You could have done a myriad of other things. You elected to do as you did. Other members have been polite enough to actually offer suggestions as to where to fork the topic, and that's what I'm working on right now.

I don't agree with Arkandel's assessment of the situation. You're right: Enarei starts up shit on Page 10, albeit in a way that begins with some rational talk. The topic wasn't moved because of anything you did; it was moved because it collectively had wandered into Hog Pit land.

If I'm a useless fucking pile of shit because I'm not all-too-familiar with the admin commands, so be it. In the past, entire topics had been moved; here, there appeared to be a very limited amount of constructive material related to the topic, mostly because it seems clear that United Heroes' staff doesn't intend to change or fix anything.

As a reminder, you're in the Mildly Constructive area right now.

Crazy idea, if you can't spend 5 minutes learning the commands/etc to moderate a forum....

Maybe don't moderate a forum?

[Ganymede]

@tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Crazy idea, if you can't spend 5 minutes learning the commands/etc to moderate a forum....

Maybe don't moderate a forum?

Crazy idea, but if two out of three moderators know a particular command well enough and there is no need for immediate action, maybe waiting for a walkthrough on your first attempt is wiser than tinkering on one's lonesome and risking the obliteration of some posts.

[Tempest]

@ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Crazy idea, if you can't spend 5 minutes learning the commands/etc to moderate a forum....

Maybe don't moderate a forum?

Crazy idea, but if two out of three moderators know a particular command well enough and there is no need for immediate action, maybe waiting for a walkthrough on your first attempt is wiser than tinkering on one's lonesome and risking obliterating some posts.

Yes, just randomly move an entire thread instead of waiting for them to show you how to do it properly.

[Ganymede]

@tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Yes, just randomly move an entire thread instead of waiting for them to show you how to do it properly.

But moving the entire thread was the intended action. There was nothing random about it.

[Kanye Qwest]

You guys should probably not be modding beyond splitting off threads that have quite obviously gone down the hole until you have an idea of what policies you want to enforce. You've - meaning the three of you as a group - been all over the place.

If you just want to ban spammers and 4chan trolls, fine. No need to hammer anything out. If you want to be threatening longtime posters with nebulous "you'll be unwelcome", or make suggestions on content in the hog pit, you probably ought to have your story straight. Both for yourselves, and so people will know what to expect and whether or not they want to expect it.

[Tempest]

@ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Yes, just randomly move an entire thread instead of waiting for them to show you how to do it properly.

But moving the entire thread was the intended action. There was nothing random about it.

There is no logical reason to move 250 posts to the hogpit when only the last 10% of them are 'bad'.

You're just being ridiculous now.

[faraday]

@Tempest What's the big deal here? The thread was moved to the hog pit when it turned into a flame war. @Arkandel and @Ganymede have both said they're looking at splitting it up more constructively. How about we give them some time to sort things out instead of screaming insults at them?

And really, I think everyone who saw the title on your new thread was placing bets on how long it would be till that got moved or renamed. All it would have taken was a title like "Alert about UH" or something and you would've been fine. There's no need to try to turn this into some kind of "@Ganymede has a vendetta" thing when the title was quite obviously not constructive.

[Alzie]

I don't really understand why anyone is surprised that the thread was moved. It literally devolved into enarai insulting everyone's intelligence, 3 pages of people posting reaction gifs and then Tempest giving the following as a response to a request to stop filling the thread with fuck you gifs:

@tempest said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

We have special permissions.

Because fuck UH in particular.

Now you're surprised and abhorred?

[Tempest]

@faraday said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@Tempest What's the big deal here? The thread was moved to the hog pit when it turned into a flame war. @Arkandel and @Ganymede have both said they're looking at splitting it up more constructively. How about we give them some time to sort things out instead of screaming insults at them?

And really, I think everyone who saw the title on your new thread was placing bets on how long it would be till that got moved or renamed. All it would have taken was a title like "Alert about UH" or something and you would've been fine. There's no need to try to turn this into some kind of "@Ganymede has a vendetta" thing when the title was quite obviously not constructive.

There was no reason for the entire thread to be moved. IDK why this is difficult for you and Ganymede to understand. We literally had people in the thread saying "PLEASE DO NOT MOVE THE WHOLE THREAD". Hey, if you wanted to cull the last 3 pages or w/e, go for it.

[Arkandel]

@tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@ganymede Again, I did that because YOU are a fucking useless pile of shit as a mod and moved an entire thread to the hogpit.

Would you please take a look at the forum this thread is in now? I know you are pissed off but that's not an excuse. If you can't refrain from name calling then you will need to take a break either way.

@kanye-qwest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

If you just want to ban spammers and 4chan trolls, fine. No need to hammer anything out. If you want to be threatening longtime posters with nebulous "you'll be unwelcome", or make suggestions on content in the hog pit, you probably ought to have your story straight. Both for yourselves, and so people will know what to expect and whether or not they want to expect it.

Being a long-time poster means nothing. I have nothing personal against @Tempest - I like her just fine. I would ban her in a minute if she steps out of bounds far enough.

As for what to expect and what not... we have to use our judgment. If it's not consistent enough it's because we are not actually a hive mind (heh...), and we're making this shit up as we go along. The line - for me - is whether the discussion remains civil and attempts to be constructive; is it aiming to suggest ways things can improve, to point out things are not working, or is it just a full-on personal attack? The f-bombs are optional.

We should (and will, going forward) talk among ourselves more but... I will greatly appreciate if every time we do our jobs we didn't have someone playing the "oh you got a personal vendetta against me, personally" card. We are moderating, we will continue to moderate. You asked us to. You need to live with that.

As a sidenote, really... really, @Ganymede is one of the most straight forward, fair people I know. If you can count on nothing else you can definitely expect brutal honesty from the lawbot. There is no agenda here, what you see is what you get.

[Ganymede]

@kanye-qwest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

If you just want to ban spammers and 4chan trolls, fine. No need to hammer anything out. If you want to be threatening longtime posters with nebulous "you'll be unwelcome", or make suggestions on content in the hog pit, you probably ought to have your story straight. Both for yourselves, and so people will know what to expect and whether or not they want to expect it.

This is a good idea. We've been trying to work as a team of equals, but maybe a delegation of responsibility would be better.

[Meg]

@arkandel

@meg said in United Heroes is Literally Worse than Hitler.:

There is something constructive to be discussed here, and that is what is being moderated and what isn't. What is within rules, and what isn't.

And when are mods speaking as mods, and when are they speaking as just another person.

Yes, the board asked for more moderation, but I do feel like it's people in the middle that are getting caught out in an unfair way. People like @Tempest are always going to post what they are going to post, but the rest of us, well. We could benefit from some clarity.

And this isn't about disliking any mod. I hope that @Ganymede and @Auspice know that I like them. I like @Arkandel. But I dislike things being unclear.

Please stop throwing a 'You asked us to' at us every time we have questions. Not all of us are using a personal vendetta card.

But we have questions. And these questions /do need answers/.