Alternative Formats to MU

[faraday]

@ganymede said in Alternative Formats to MU:

All of this may be true, but good games differ from one another. Your package may have all of the great features we've come to know and love, but I don't think, for example, that the developers are interested in coding up special, unique features for each game.

Of course if you want special, unique features you'll need a coder. That will always be true. But right now you need a coder even if you don't want special unique features, and that's silly.

Systemless games + Games willing to run FS3 + Games willing to run a simple "descriptive stat" system (like many comic games) ... all of these will be enabled out of the box with zero code in Ares. And that's not even counting games that can be enabled it somebody does a drop-in plugin for a new system.

And if somebody does want custom code? Unless they're already a kung-fu MUSHcode master, it's going to be way way way easier to learn the new systems than the old.

[faraday]

I feel kinda bad that the thread has derailed off @tragedyjones' original question. Maybe the last few pages about Evennia/Ares should be split off into a different thread about "New MU Platforms in Development" or something? @Auspice @Ganymede @Arkandel ?

[Apos]

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@ganymede said in Alternative Formats to MU:

All of this may be true, but good games differ from one another. Your package may have all of the great features we've come to know and love, but I don't think, for example, that the developers are interested in coding up special, unique features for each game.

Of course if you want special, unique features you'll need a coder. That will always be true. But right now you need a coder even if you don't want special unique features, and that's silly.

Systemless games + Games willing to run FS3 + Games willing to run a simple "descriptive stat" system (like many comic games) ... all of these will be enabled out of the box with zero code in Ares. And that's not even counting games that can be enabled it somebody does a drop-in plugin for a new system.

And if somebody does want custom code? Unless they're already a kung-fu MUSHcode master, it's going to be way way way easier to learn the new systems than the old.

Yeah, I don't mean this as a slam on WoD at all, but it seems to me that a core reason for its popularity is the already existing softcode that can be plugged into it. It's significantly easier to set up a sandbox and get going there than anywhere else, along with a great many people familiar with it that are willing to pitch in.

I'm sympathetic to people that are extremely proficient in softcode and prefer it, but I just don't see any advantages to it outside of that familiarity.

[Tat]

@ganymede said in Alternative Formats to MU:

All of this may be true, but good games differ from one another. Your package may have all of the great features we've come to know and love, but I don't think, for example, that the developers are interested in coding up special, unique features for each game.

I could be wrong, mind.

I can think of half a dozen different games I could run on an Ares FS3 install without changing a lick of code beyond the configuration settings (types of weapons, factions, ranks, etc). AT LEAST.

I'm also working on a game that's involving a lot of actual code changing. There's no reason it can't be done in Ares (or Evennia) if one wants to, the same way it can be in MUSH.

But there is a LOT of room for creativity within the basic framework, even without different stuff. That opens doors for a lot of people who'd otherwise have them shut because lack of coder.

[Arkandel]

@apos said in Alternative Formats to MU:

it seems to me that a core reason for its popularity is the already existing softcode that can be plugged into it. It's significantly easier to set up a sandbox and get going there than anywhere else, along with a great many people familiar with it that are willing to pitch in.

It's part of the appeal. Maybe half of it. I think the other half though is definitely that the existing playerbase is easier to set up for it; there are a lot of people who already know the rules, the setting, are familiar with concepts and themes, so staff only needs to do the same thing everyone is used to (including themselves) to get going, instead of having to explain how everything works.

This is reflected in some wikis which are basically minor rewrites of old wikis, down to CGen syntax and policy documents.

[surreality]

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Are they really doing the same things though? Smashing the do you have a coder flowchart that has hindered the creation of games for 25 years. Making it orders of magnitude easier to learn to code, as @Tat mentioned. Creating a seamless web/wiki/game integration. These are things that, to the best of my knowledge, haven't been done before.

People have gotten to 2 out of 3 on that trinity, but never beyond that without some kind of hurdle or branch in the way, from what I've seen thus far.

The sad thing to me, in part, is that this could actually be done in mediawiki with a few additions or some fairly major cultural changes, neither of which is at all likely. A play-by-forum style game, however, could be very, very easily run on mediawiki today, for instance, because the inherent need for the immediacy of chat/page functions on a per-page basis are different in that medium, as are typically the cultural norms re: privacy, both of which are very relevant.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@apos said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Yeah, I don't mean this as a slam on WoD at all, but it seems to me that a core reason for its popularity is the already existing softcode that can be plugged into it. It's significantly easier to set up a sandbox and get going there than anywhere else, along with a great many people familiar with it that are willing to pitch in.

Yeah, I'm reading this 'good games differ' line and am just baffled, given the world we all exist in. We've been getting by on plug-and-play code in large part for decades. I cannot fathom how better plug-and-play systems will be anything but a positive and open up the market for people who wouldn't have otherwise to run a good game.

[Ganymede]

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

How is that related to her point?

Faraday picked up on it.

Of course if you want special, unique features you'll need a coder. That will always be true. But right now you need a coder even if you don't want special unique features, and that's silly.

And Apos did as well, sort of.

Yeah, I don't mean this as a slam on WoD at all, but it seems to me that a core reason for its popularity is the already existing softcode that can be plugged into it.

I concur with Apos, and sympathize with Faraday. My comment was, by no intent, a knock on what she's doing on her end. (I'm a Faraday fanboygrl.)

I have ideas. I always have ideas. But I lack the skills to turn those ideas into functional code. Yes, I could learn how to code, but that's a barrier due to time and personal responsibilities. So, for now, I must rely on a coder, or someone with enough proficiency to take Ares out of the box and make it work (chug chug chug). I love BSG:U and will continue to promote it, but what I want to do slightly differs in that I foresee the need for an entire block of other commands that don't exist yet (as far as I know).

That said, I want whatever project I have in mind to work with Ares. I think it, and Evennia, are the way of the future. I want to promote both.

But I still have a problem doing this myself. So the "do I have a coder" flowchart is still stapled to my ass. And I think that successful games need something unique to themselves, so there'll always be a need for a coder, no matter how much Faraday adds to the standard toolbox. If innovation will help the hobby flourish, then games will need coders to push that envelope. And, from a non-coder perspective, I think this is a fact that makes the "do I have a coder" flowchart a truism.

[RnMissionRun]

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Was just pointing out the futility of doing the same things over and over but expecting different results.

Are they really doing the same things though? Smashing the do you have a coder flowchart that has hindered the creation of games for 25 years. Making it orders of magnitude easier to learn to code, as @Tat mentioned. Creating a seamless web/wiki/game integration. These are things that, to the best of my knowledge, haven't been done before.

Naturally, any new product challenging the status quo faces an uphill battle. And yes, others have tried and failed. Does that make it futile? I don't think so, but everyone here knows my penchant for tilting at windmills

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier. Sure, it might help some folks, but IMO if you don't have the aptitude for coding, simply switching languages isn't going to make any difference. The problem is that doing anything non-trivial in /any/ programming language requires real skill. Non-coders probably won't have those skills, or be interested in developing them.

[Apos]

@three-eyed-crow said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@apos said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Yeah, I don't mean this as a slam on WoD at all, but it seems to me that a core reason for its popularity is the already existing softcode that can be plugged into it. It's significantly easier to set up a sandbox and get going there than anywhere else, along with a great many people familiar with it that are willing to pitch in.

Yeah, I'm reading this 'good games differ' line and am just baffled, given the world we all exist in. We've been getting by on plug-and-play code in large part for decades. I cannot fathom how better plug-and-play systems will be anything but a positive and open up the market for people who wouldn't have otherwise to run a good game.

Now in fairness to the quote where that came from, I am pretty sure they just meant every good owner will want to add their own things and systems if they don't want a sandbox clone. But even from that perspective, I think it's just easier to do so in a modern language, and having a baseline, out of box game that can then be modded easily is a huge help. And as systems are created, they become very portable.

Edit: @Ganymede was hitting the same point while I was posting, so I will edit to add for clarity- I believe it would be significantly easier to port systems made in ruby or python to new games, if people are willing to share code, so in theory even for someone wanting extremely complicated systems but without having the time/ability to code, there could eventually be a whole hell of a lot they could do out of the box with a bazillion potential modules/add ons.

[Sunny]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier.

https://codecombat.com

This exists for learning Python. I have used it to teach teenagers, and I do not code. This truly is orders of magnitude easier than how we had to learn to use mushcode. This isn't even considering the fact that I can literally go take a class from a professional instructor, do a coding boot camp, buy any number of hundreds of books, watch instruction videos on youtube...and I could continue going on listing ways to learn, NONE of which exist for mushcode.

[Ashen-Shugar]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier. Sure, it might help some folks, but IMO if you don't have the aptitude for coding, simply switching languages isn't going to make any difference. The problem is that doing anything non-trivial in /any/ programming language requires real skill. Non-coders probably won't have those skills, or be interested in developing them.

And this is something we plan to have a unique solution to for RhostMUSH.

We're in the process of (hopefully) making a fully independent API language processor into the game. This is separate from the Restful(ish) API that we currently have available.

What the language API will (hopefully) do is allow you to plug in, quite literally, nearly any external programming language (ruby, python, perl, etc) and have it work as if it was a native language plugin (ergo, native C) for all intents and purposes to the mush.

Meaning, you would have tie-in into the internals of the codebase and be able to interactively use it in your language of choice.

While we can't make coding any easier, we can empower a user to use the language they know best.

That's about the best we can do for you

[RnMissionRun]

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier.

https://codecombat.com

This exists for learning Python. I have used it to teach teenagers, and I do not code. This truly is orders of magnitude easier than how we had to learn to use mushcode. This isn't even considering the fact that I can literally go take a class from a professional instructor, do a coding boot camp, buy any number of hundreds of books, watch instruction videos on youtube...and I could continue going on listing ways to learn, NONE of which exist for mushcode.

Motivated learner, apparently with the aptitude for programming and with access to quality instruction tools. Results not typical

[Roz]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier.

https://codecombat.com

This exists for learning Python. I have used it to teach teenagers, and I do not code. This truly is orders of magnitude easier than how we had to learn to use mushcode. This isn't even considering the fact that I can literally go take a class from a professional instructor, do a coding boot camp, buy any number of hundreds of books, watch instruction videos on youtube...and I could continue going on listing ways to learn, NONE of which exist for mushcode.

Motivated learner, apparently with the aptitude for programming and with access to quality instruction tools. Results not typical

If someone doesn't want to tinker with a modern programming language, they're certainly not going to tinker with the mess that is MUSH code.

[Sunny]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier.

https://codecombat.com

This exists for learning Python. I have used it to teach teenagers, and I do not code. This truly is orders of magnitude easier than how we had to learn to use mushcode. This isn't even considering the fact that I can literally go take a class from a professional instructor, do a coding boot camp, buy any number of hundreds of books, watch instruction videos on youtube...and I could continue going on listing ways to learn, NONE of which exist for mushcode.

Motivated learner, apparently with the aptitude for programming and with access to quality instruction tools. Results not typical

How on earth is it HARDER than learning mush code?

[Meg]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier. Sure, it might help some folks, but IMO if you don't have the aptitude for coding, simply switching languages isn't going to make any difference. The problem is that doing anything non-trivial in /any/ programming language requires real skill. Non-coders probably won't have those skills, or be interested in developing them.

Lol. I once showed a real coder (a man who has worked as a systems architect in C, C++, and C# and node.js and all kinds of languages for 20+ years) some MUSH code and he stared at it in horror and couldn't figure it out.

He could probably learn Python in a day.

And that's an /experienced coder/ learning. Not an inexperienced one.

[Tat]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier.

https://codecombat.com

This exists for learning Python. I have used it to teach teenagers, and I do not code. This truly is orders of magnitude easier than how we had to learn to use mushcode. This isn't even considering the fact that I can literally go take a class from a professional instructor, do a coding boot camp, buy any number of hundreds of books, watch instruction videos on youtube...and I could continue going on listing ways to learn, NONE of which exist for mushcode.

Motivated learner, apparently with the aptitude for programming and with access to quality instruction tools. Results not typical

Results way better than motivated learner with access to 'where the hell is the 'Lost Library of MOO' these days anyway?'

I mean, yes, you have to be motivated and have some aptitude to code. But coding in most M* languages requires MORE motivation and MORE aptitude, along with an insane level of tenacity just to find resources.

Plus, something we haven't mentioned yet: coding in languages that other people know opens up the possibility of outsourcing your game building. In these days when some of us finally have more money than free time, one could /hire/ someone to code a system.

[Ashen-Shugar]

@meg said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier. Sure, it might help some folks, but IMO if you don't have the aptitude for coding, simply switching languages isn't going to make any difference. The problem is that doing anything non-trivial in /any/ programming language requires real skill. Non-coders probably won't have those skills, or be interested in developing them.

Lol. I once showed a real coder (a man who has worked as a systems architect in C, C++, and C# and node.js and all kinds of languages for 20+ years) some MUSH code and he stared at it in horror and couldn't figure it out.

He could probably learn Python in a day.

And that's an /experienced coder/ learning. Not an inexperienced one.

Meh.

Depends on the person and their way of thinking.

Likely, the C, C++, C#, node.js developer learned in a structured environment and learned programming in a very orthodox and strucured way.

Going from that to mush is always going to cause problems.

Because while mushcode could be semi-structured, how it's layed out with attributes and not lines, and the fact it's interpreted and not compiled leads to a brain-fart when trying to go from one to the other.

It would have made more logical sense if you were saying:

So, I showed this person who graduated in language history and computer language design MUSH code and he caught on pretty quickly!

That would be more the background of knowing MUSH, because MUSH was an inspired language as a college project, based in language history and language design.

Pulling someone from a structured language and expecting them to just catch onto MUSH really doesn't have much weight.

Because again, MUSH isn't a typical structured language.

[RnMissionRun]

@meg said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier. Sure, it might help some folks, but IMO if you don't have the aptitude for coding, simply switching languages isn't going to make any difference. The problem is that doing anything non-trivial in /any/ programming language requires real skill. Non-coders probably won't have those skills, or be interested in developing them.

Lol. I once showed a real coder (a man who has worked as a systems architect in C, C++, and C# and node.js and all kinds of languages for 20+ years) some MUSH code and he stared at it in horror and couldn't figure it out.

He could probably learn Python in a day.

And that's an /experienced coder/ learning. Not an inexperienced one.

That was my first reaction too, but I stuck with it and eventually figured it out

My point was that simply switching languages wasn't going to help people who weren't interested in learning a programming language or who lack the aptitude for coding.

[Roz]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@meg said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier. Sure, it might help some folks, but IMO if you don't have the aptitude for coding, simply switching languages isn't going to make any difference. The problem is that doing anything non-trivial in /any/ programming language requires real skill. Non-coders probably won't have those skills, or be interested in developing them.

Lol. I once showed a real coder (a man who has worked as a systems architect in C, C++, and C# and node.js and all kinds of languages for 20+ years) some MUSH code and he stared at it in horror and couldn't figure it out.

He could probably learn Python in a day.

And that's an /experienced coder/ learning. Not an inexperienced one.

That was my first reaction too, but I stuck with it and eventually figured it out

My point was that simply switching languages wasn't going to help people who weren't interested in learning a programming language or who lack the aptitude for coding.

No, but it will make it a whole lot easier for folks who are inclined to try out learning a bit of code. Like, the idea that changing to an easier and more powerful programming language with tons more resources to learn in the world somehow will have no effect on anything is just -- weird.

Yes, people who don't want to try ever learning code will continue to not try to learn code. That will be the case no matter what.