@derp It just strikes me as funny since WoD comes up as 'what we should use because it's what people know', and... in reality, not so many people actually know it, as playing on any WoD game for more than five minutes tends to prove. 
@derp said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
If someone joined a DnD game and didn't have at least a basic grasp of how it works, people would be pissed.
I don't play on WoD so I can't speak to that, but other systems? No, that has never been my experience, either in MUSH or in tabletop. People are generally happy to help/teach someone who doesn't know the system.
Certainly I don't expect anyone coming to one of my FS3 games to already know the system, any more than I expect them to know the theme/setting. The game files should teach them what they need to know to play the game.
Teaching them is, of course, an extra burden for any game based off a non-open-source RPG, since you can't reprint material or point to a free and public PDF. Doubly so for a complex system. But I have never seen a game where it's like "If you don't know the system already, go away."
@faraday I'm happy to teach.
I'm not happy to be expected to teach. That's the line.
If you join a game, one is expected to be willing to learn. Those that 'don't know' WoD don't seem willing to absorb a damned thing.
He/Him
I am happy to teach someone... to a point. This is something @aria and I had discussed not all that long ago. And yes, this is using the WoD system again, but whatevs. Back on HM, there had been this girl. She was relatively new to gaming, and MUSHing in particular. No big, lots of people start out that way. She's asked 'do you have any of the books'? Nope. That's okay, she's given links to drivethrurpg so she can buy the WoD mortal book and Changeling book. But, she's poor, you see. So she can't buy the books. Okay. Some of us grab her on Skype, offer to share OUR copies of the books with her. But you see, she's just a girl (teehee) and this technology stuff confuses her. Eyeroll and start to squint. She gets someone to handhold her through cgen. Enter Schoni, the goblin girl. She goes out into public and starts RPing. But, you see, she doesn't know what any of her abilities do, could someone please look up this power and tell her what she has to do and how? This continues for MONTHS. She actively resists all attempts and offers to set her up with the books so she can look this stuff up for herself. Instead she relies on the other players to know this shit FOR her. It was ridiculous. Most of us recognized this in a matter of weeks. Some poor, noble and deluded folks, continued to try to help her. It took about 6 months before people finally stopped helping her and she was forced to learn the game.
@tinuviel Sure, anyone coming to a game should be willing to do the work necessary to learn the game (by this I'm including the setting and the system). An entitled expectation to have everything spoon-fed to you is obnoxious in any game.
ETA: What I said though was that teaching was a burden to the game. By this I mean the game documentation, with the staff available to answer questions / clarify docs as needed.
@faraday To a point, yeah. bur if your game uses a system that is published and out there... then it's not on the game to ensure you've read the book.
If I set a game in the Harry Potter universe, I expect you to know what a horcrux is.
He/Him
@tinuviel said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
If I set a game in the Harry Potter universe, I expect you to know what a horcrux is.
That's your choice, naturally, but it's not universal. BSGU welcomes people who are unfamiliar with the theme. The only requirement is that you be willing to learn. Some of our most active/contributing players have never seen the show, and they do just fine. If I ran a Shadowrun game, I would not expect anybody coming in to know the system or have read the umpteen zillion splat books. I would, however, expect them to read the game's wiki files, which should teach them all the basics they need to know.
It's totally fair for a game to post on their news files: "We expect you to know the theme/system". They can have whatever policies they like.
What I was responding to was @Derp's assertion that in general people would be pissed if you turned up to a game without knowing the system. My experience over dozens of games and multiple decades has been the opposite.
@faraday Same. I am building my game with the intent of educating people on source material I do not expect them to be familiar with. It's my job to teach this stuff, if I want to draw people in who aren't already part of the culture.
@derp said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
But basic mechanics? If someone joined a DnD game and didn't have at least a basic grasp of how it works, people would be pissed. Expert level mastery not needed, but a goodly many folks at least know the general gist, even if they have to look stuff up occasionally. That is the expectation.
Off Topic Rant but here goes, for gods sake look up your shit before it is your turn if you are a player. Combat both in Table top and in mush is not all that fast moving, if you have a power, skill, spell, or whatever, and wonder if it can be useful, look at it while during one of the folks going before you. Yes sometimes the situation can change and cause a delay that is understandable but abut half the time wasted in combat would be fixed by people getting prepared to take their turn a little in advance.
@faraday said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
What I was responding to was @Derp's assertion that in general people would be pissed if you turned up to a game without knowing the system.
Notice, however, two things about my original assertion:
There is a difference between theme and game system/mechanics. People don't get pissed as much about theme as they do mechanics.
This only tends to fly on WoD or games with an original RPG system in place.
Games using established systems are where this comes into play, and theme / source fiction material is different than mechanics.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
@derp said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
Games using established systems are where this comes into play, and theme / source fiction material is different than mechanics.
I was talking about mechanics too, until I replied to Tinuviel talking about theme. I'm not questioning or challenging your experiences. I'm just explaining my own differing experiences. I have never once in 20+ years of MUSHing seen anybody get "pissed" that a person didn't know the RPG system before showing up. I'm not saying it's never happened. I just don't think it's as universal as you seem to believe, that's all.
Now I have seen people (rightfully) get pissed at lazy/entitled doofs that show up expecting you to explain everything so they don't have to read a single news file. That's obnoxious, but that's a different situation.
@derp said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
@faraday said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
What I was responding to was @Derp's assertion that in general people would be pissed if you turned up to a game without knowing the system.
Notice, however, two things about my original assertion:
There is a difference between theme and game system/mechanics. People don't get pissed as much about theme as they do mechanics.
This only tends to fly on WoD or games with an original RPG system in place.
Games using established systems are where this comes into play, and theme / source fiction material is different than mechanics.
Bullshit.
I get tons of pissed more about theme and setting than game mechanics. Game mechanics I can usually help with pretty damned fast, especially if it's a system I am super familiar with. Not a problem, I will help someone learn what they can do.
People who don't learn the setting or theme?
They break the immersion of the game for me and literally /kill/ my desire to play on a game.
Sorry to break up the argument here.
Two settings have been discussed between I and my collaborator(s). They are as follows:
Wolves at the Gates
1359. It has been two hundred years since the Duke of Saxony took Lubeck from the Count of Schauenberg and Holstein. The cities along the Baltic have flourished under intrepid merchant trade and loose regulations. The success of the burgeoning Hanseatic League has not gone unnoticed, however, and barbarians from the East and Catholics from the South. Meanwhile, the League has turned its eyes to Denmark after the Kingdom attempted to cut trade through the Skaggerak. Kindred fangs are sunk deep into the chapterhouses and guilds, however, and monsters pull the strings of puppet-princes in this high-time of intrigue.
The Siege
The Strix are here. Archbishop Aloysius Gonzaga has sealed off the borders to and from Spokane: no communication, no travel, nothing. All Kindred must present themselves to his Scourges every week to be examined; every Kindred that fails to do so is burned in public at the stake. All Kindred that attempt to break the siege -- either by departure and causing others to arrive -- are burned at the stake. But some say it's not the Strix at all that threaten the gates, but a more insidious enemy from a place called 'The Land of Worms', who have come to avenge the white man's seizing of their lands. Nothing is safe and nothing is secure, even though the Archbishop's Scourges patrol the valley every evening -- not when the Archbishop is said to be insane.
As for the argument at hand, my thoughts: WoD is an easy system to understand, but it has so many exceptions and powers that a novice can get very lost very quickly. I don't mind helping people build their PCs, as I know the system and exploits fairly well. On a vampire game, it is not unthematic for a player's PC to learn as he or she goes; however, he or she cannot, and should not, expect complete safety as they do so.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
I don't really know the history behind option 1. But it sounds neat. The only thing I would worry about is the setting would be much more lethal to mortals and much less lethal to vampires, given a lack of firearms and technology. Without magic or some other balancing factor, that could end up pretty lopsided.
Option 2 sounds interesting, but ehn. I'm not feeling the appeal of Spokane. The story sounds cool, but why there? What is the appeal to players to want to work there? What cool things does it have when they aren't actively being threatened with fire and angry spirits?
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
Option 2 is good, theoretically. The main sticking point, given my brief skim-through, is... where do new people come from if they can't get in?
Having been to Spokane, I have to say my reaction is...lukewarm, at best.
@derp said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
I don't really know the history behind option 1. But it sounds neat. The only thing I would worry about is the setting would be much more lethal to mortals and much less lethal to vampires, given a lack of firearms and technology. Without magic or some other balancing factor, that could end up pretty lopsided.
In 2E, firearms don't mean shit to vampires, and their regular banes are diminished if the vampires happen to be of low Blood Potency. That said, it would be more political, and mortals have the advantage of having more Time to Do Shit (TM). Plus, XP will be capped, which means uber-Vampire are unavailable.
Toying with the idea of slipping mages in there, but ugh mages. Mortal+, probably.
Option 2 sounds interesting, but ehn. I'm not feeling the appeal of Spokane. The story sounds cool, but why there? What is the appeal to players to want to work there? What cool things does it have when they aren't actively being threatened with fire and angry spirits?
Spokane's an isolated, but successful community. You're pretty far away from other cities, so isolation is a real thing. You're surrounded by mountains and forests and reservations. Everyone is going to have to start as a Spokane native (to answer @tinuviel's question). And the point is to keep and maintain your little, carved territory against predation from the insane Prince and other threats. I was thinking about Alaskan communities and Reno, but I really just wanted to find a place that is physically isolated and far from other major communities (Dayton, Ohio didn't really fit).
In both cases, the game will be heavy into politics. This is currently being hashed out with my collaborator(s). There will be substantially more automation than other games through a number of proposed code-bits, like a Territory system and a Resource system. There will be some mini-gaming involved to keep the politics going. But, as with all things, whatever we come up with will be typed out and open for discussion and peer review, I hope, before we start looking around for code-help. It's a long-term project (like most of my projects).
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@ganymede said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:
Toying with the idea of slipping mages in there, but ugh mages. Mortal+, probably.
Do. Not. Do.
To even contemplate such a thing is to break your game. Even Mortal + has some stupidly silly broken powers, not even talking about the pyro/cryokinesis either.
Mage takes any setting you want and breaks it, unless that setting is focused around mage.
You might as well off-handedly throw out the one set in 1359, just based on the history of Dark Ages MU*s being epic fails. I do like the idea of the Strix one though, and would play on that.
@derp It just strikes me as funny since WoD comes up as 'what we should use because it's what people know', and... in reality, not so many people actually know it, as playing on any WoD game for more than five minutes tends to prove.
