Armageddon MUD

[ThugHeaven]

@roz It is a fair concern and I've already said things like that don't happen as much as they used to, if at all. But at the same time, its a game where there is documentation that tells you how to behave and what you should and shouldn't and there's lots of it. So it is ICA=ICC.

So here's a little anecdote: My very first character. I decided to play an assassin, I walked into the local tavern and said something to the effect of "Hey where's the local assassin's guild?" Well there is no local assassin's guild and like most games, you really shouldn't be telling people you are an assassin. So two guys say "Sure, we'll take you to the assassin's guild." I follow them and they slap me around a little bit and then have me join what is the city's crime organization. So I could've been in my fee fees and been all "Oh no, I didn't mean that, my character would know not to say that." But I rolled with it and it actually turned out to my benefit. Now might there be players that will take your mistake and run with it? It's unlikely, but it's a possibility.

I get that people have valid concerns and even objections. I'm ok with that. I also get that it's not a game for everybody, that's not why I'm here. I'm advertising for the people the game is for.

I also get that things happened in the past to people, that don't happen anymore. That's what I'm doing. What I'm not doing is calling people pansies or saying it's not for anybody, that's for every individual to decide.

[Roz]

@thugheaven I think a productive way to say what you're trying to say is, "Yeah, that used to be a much bigger problem. There's been a notable shift in that, though, if you're interested in trying it out again. That said, there's a lot of documentation, and it's still less forgiving about that sort of thing than other games, given there's a lot less OOC communication, so it can be important to read up, and that might mean it's not the game for you."

Unproductive: Anything with the phrase "fee fees" which, yes, is going to make people feel like you're calling them pansies.

[ThugHeaven]

@sunny I shouldn't be saying that, because I don't have to. If you've decided the game isn't for you. Then it isn't for you. I don't need to say that though, because that's what you've already decided.

If something happened to you, that's not happening anymore I can speak on that too though.

[ThugHeaven]

@roz You're absolutely right!

[Lithium]

@roz Don't think they are listening Roz.

[faraday]

@sunny said in Armageddon MUD:

This game isn't for a lot of us around here. People's objections aren't because they're pansies who need a fee fee check.

Yes I think this is the part that @ThugHeaven is missing. It has absolutely zero to do with IC Actions = IC Consequences.

It's like... if I play Fallout on PS4, it doesn't matter that my character has lived their whole life in this bunker and in this world. I need to find my way around and figure out how crap works myself. When I fight in Battlefront, my reflexes matter more than my character's. And that's all totally fine, if people know that and expect it going in.

But most of us here are used to games where your character has knowledge and skills that are wholly independent from your own. There are rails in place so people don't go around being a jerk just because someone else makes a mistake that their character never would have made.

Which is not to say characters never make mistakes. But there's a difference between a gifted surgeon losing a patient on the table versus a gifted surgeon not knowing where the operating room is in the hospital they've worked their entire career. One is understandable and fun drama. The other is just silly.

[ThugHeaven]

@faraday No, I do get that. And you're free to report something like that to staff if you feel you're being treated unfairly.

I think what seems to be missed is that I'm saying, things like that aren't a normal event anymore. I can't say that, that doesn't happen fully because that can happen with rules in place.

I think a better analogy would be: You're at work and you mouth off to your boss. You know better than to do that, because you've known that all your life mouthing off to your boss can get you reprimanded or worse. You do it anyway, there is no "I didn't know I shouldn't have mouthed off to you."

So in the case of the game, you make a mistake like that because you the player didn't know. Yes, in the past that could get your character killed. Even though in my previous example that wasn't necessarily the case for my character and that was waaay back in 1999. I'm aware that that COULD have happened. But what I'm saying now is, a player now would likely be able to figure out that you're new and you didn't know and would correct you IC. It's not something that happens regularly.

[Roz]

@thugheaven I don't think people really missed you saying that events like that are less common now. I think it's just that people are noticing more that you chose to use weirdly and unnecessarily condescending language in several of your explanations.

[Sunny]

@thugheaven

I was trying to say that instead of insulting people for reasonable objections, it's more productive to just turn them away. Because that's what you did.

I object to IC consequences for OOC ignorance. This does not mean I have a fee fee problem, it means this game is not for me.

[ThugHeaven]

@roz and @sunny You're right. I apologize for making a statement that was weirdly phrased and condescending.

[Alzie]

I played armageddon. Getting in with one of the families was really nice. My only real problem with it was that skill leveling was a second job. I don't log into a game to take up a second job, I wanted to RP. Now the help files will tell you 'well, don't skill level, just go RP' and that's nice and all, but I also don't play a skill based mu so I can forever be incapable of crafting a simple dagger either. So take that as you will.

It's this weird place that has this culture of 'don't level your skills' followed up with 'but do level your skills, because otherwise you're useless' followed up with 'but don't spend too much time doing it or the admin will erase your progress.'

[Salty]

This post is deleted!

[ThugHeaven]

@alzie It's usually best to join an org of some kind so that's a good way to start out. Your skills DO start out pretty badly. That's something I mentioned they are working on fixing with the new guilds they're working on, so that you don't start off as a complete failure at everything. But for now, you do have to spend some time working on getting them better. The thing is your improvement is on a timer. So once you fail, you've notched up a level, but you aren't going to progress any further until your timer is up. You can keep repeating the process, but it's not going to do anything.

So I think what they mean by "Don't focus on your skills, just role play" is once you fail, it's better to focus on roleplaying something because it's pretty pointless to keep making attempts. The skills are set up where, you can succeed at a low skill level, so if you really need to make something you'll get it. You can get good at crafting ridiculously fast.

[ThugHeaven]

@twinprince You're right, there is a separate forum for people that had complaints about the game. From looking at it though. There haven't really been any complaints on there for some time. I think someone paid attention to the complaints there and started making changes. So the lack of complaints is saying they have made some kind of commitment to making changes and they have.

As far as the 'fee fee' thing that wasn't what I meant. What I meant was, if you make a mistake as a result of you the player not knowing something, other players would likely respond to it IC. Players do take ICA=ICC very serious there. Your natural reaction is going to be something along the lines of "Oh shit! I didn't mean that!" For the most part people would accept that you didn't know and correct you IC. But it's up to you, to come out of your fee fees, and go with it. I even gave a very real example of that. You also have the alternative of breaking character and saying "I didn't know how to address a templar properly, sorry." or just asking out of character. I understood why it was taken that way and apologized for it. It wasn't my intention to come of as condescending at all.

[Ortallus]

@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:

@twinprince You're right, there is a separate forum for people that had complaints about the game. From looking at it though. There haven't really been any complaints on there for some time. I think someone paid attention to the complaints there and started making changes. So the lack of complaints is saying they have made some kind of commitment to making changes and they have.

As far as the 'fee fee' thing that wasn't what I meant. What I meant was, if you make a mistake as a result of you the player not knowing something, other players would likely respond to it IC. Players do take ICA=ICC very serious there. Your natural reaction is going to be something along the lines of "Oh shit! I didn't mean that!" For the most part people would accept that you didn't know and correct you IC. But it's up to you, to come out of your fee fees, and go with it. I even gave a very real example of that. You also have the alternative of breaking character and saying "I didn't know how to address a templar properly, sorry." or just asking out of character. I understood why it was taken that way and apologized for it. It wasn't my intention to come of as condescending at all.

ICA=ICC is fine, so long as you OOCly have the option of garnering IC information.

ICA=ICC is supposed to mean, "If your character shoots a guard, even an NPC guard, then they're going to be treated as a criminal".

Not "If you don't know where the water fountain is and you die, then tough luck."

[ThugHeaven]

@ortallus The thing is that doesn't happen. The example you're using really never happened. There were players who didn't know where simple things were. Ok, say you didn't want to ask where something is. They've put in a direction system so that it will tell you exactly how to get to the water fountain. There is no water fountain by the way, but I get your point. That's not ICA=ICC is it?

The ICA=ICC point that was made was: You don't know the ranks of the different templars. Cool, that's not in the documentation. Or even how to address a templar properly, cool that's not in the documentation. The poster that made that point, is right, things like that DID used to happen. If you asked "I noticed templars wear different colors, does that denote rank?" in the forum, you might get answers like "Find out IC" but that was like 2007. I haven't seen anything like that for some time. So say you didn't know and you addressed a templar as "Bro" or something that caused them to react poorly toward you. If you break character and say, "I'm sorry I didn't know how to address you." They would most likely break character and tell you, "The proper way to address a templar in Allanak is...." and skip right over that....provided you didn't keep doing it, then that's another issue. But sometimes some players will stay in character and tell you in character how to address a Templar.

I also pointed out that you absolutely CAN ask that question on the forum or discord and players WOULD tell you exactly how to do it. So right there you have three ways of finding that out.

Players will make allowances for you not knowing something.

[Ortallus]

@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:

@ortallus The thing is that doesn't happen. The example you're using really never happened. There were players who didn't know where simple things were. Ok, say you didn't want to ask where something is. They've put in a direction system so that it will tell you exactly how to get to the water fountain. There is no water fountain by the way, but I get your point. That's not ICA=ICC is it?

The ICA=ICC point that was made was: You don't know the ranks of the different templars. Cool, that's not in the documentation. Or even how to address a templar properly, cool that's not in the documentation. The poster that made that point, is right, things like that DID used to happen. If you asked "I noticed templars wear different colors, does that denote rank?" in the forum, you might get answers like "Find out IC" but that was like 2007. I haven't seen anything like that for some time. So say you didn't know and you addressed a templar as "Bro" or something that caused them to react poorly toward you. If you break character and say, "I'm sorry I didn't know how to address you." They would most likely break character and tell you, "The proper way to address a templar in Allanak is...." and skip right over that....provided you didn't keep doing it, then that's another issue. But sometimes some players will stay in character and tell you in character how to address a Templar.

I also pointed out that you absolutely CAN ask that question on the forum or discord and players WOULD tell you exactly how to do it. So right there you have three ways of finding that out.

Players will make allowances for you not knowing something.

Sure, and that's fine and good. But I agree that things like attacking people or mobs and then saying, "Well, it's not a person, I thought I could attack it" on an RP server won't always fly.

[Packrat]

@thugheaven Things were far worse than that, I had a character who joined one of the noble families as a guard, met a Templar, bowed to them and called them 'Sir' and was generally super respectful, then got turned on because I did not use the correct flavour of 'Lord High Exalted Master' or whatever it was that (apparently very high) rank of Templar expected to be addressed as. It required intervention from the head of the noble house to save my character then they were in the shit over it for some time.

[ThugHeaven]

@ortallus That's another thing that I haven't seen for quite some time. That's a deal where staff and players will react to you, particularly if you're running around the city killing people, because your essentially playing the role of mass murderer. Going outside and killing animals...well a lot of animals on Zalanthas are not cute and cuddly and will probably attack you first, so....they usually let that slide.

[ThugHeaven]

@packrat I remember those days. Certain things people did throw a hissy fit over. When both cities were open for play a lot of times, you'd play different characters between the cities. I often used to make the mistake of referring to a templar with the title of a templar from the other city. So I'd be in Allanak calling a templar "Faithful Lord whatever" people would start reacting. A simple ooc "oops, I was playing a Tuluki for a year, sorry!" would usually do it.