Encouraging Proactive Players
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@ortallus said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
Tenebrae/Symbol of Ea also has a really cute "random plot generator" for PrPs. You pull a lever and it spits something out like, "<Class/Villain type> is doing <thing> and it's pissing off <group> so they've hired a group of adventurers to stop them!"
I coded something like this for Alpha & Omega. You hit +gmscene, and it spit out either an NPC(s) + an action, or a scenario.
It got used... some. I think the scenarios were more successful than the NPC + action (probably because they tended to involve less needing to NPC). It was a cool idea, and I'd probably do it again, but it really was only a tool players who were already proactive were using for inspiration, not something that inspired people to become proactive, I think.
If you're curious, you can see the NPC/action/scenario list here.
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@tat said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
@ortallus said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
Tenebrae/Symbol of Ea also has a really cute "random plot generator" for PrPs. You pull a lever and it spits something out like, "<Class/Villain type> is doing <thing> and it's pissing off <group> so they've hired a group of adventurers to stop them!"
I coded something like this for Alpha & Omega. You hit +gmscene, and it spit out either an NPC(s) + an action, or a scenario.
It got used... some. I think the scenarios were more successful than the NPC + action (probably because they tended to involve less needing to NPC). It was a cool idea, and I'd probably do it again, but it really was only a tool players who were already proactive were using for inspiration, not something that inspired people to become proactive, I think.
If you're curious, you can see the NPC/action/scenario list here.
Yeah, they can often be more cute than useful, but at the same time, they can spawn ideas from one element on the list, or do 3-4 pulls and cherry pick the things from each that sound fun.
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@ortallus said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
tl;dr: If you want to 'encourage proactive players'... reward them!! Make it worth their while.
The fun of your game should be a reward in and of itself, but overall I agree with this statement.
Players want to feel like they have agency in the game they're playing and the plots happening around them. They're much more likely to engage and keep coming back if you keep things fresh, exciting, and interesting, and reward them for the effort they're putting in.
I come from an RPI, so rewards and involvement look a bit different than in a MUSH setting, but overall I think the best way to keep proactive players is to make sure their activity is noticed and appreciated.
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@rahnevyn said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
@ortallus said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
tl;dr: If you want to 'encourage proactive players'... reward them!! Make it worth their while.
The fun of your game should be a reward in and of itself, but overall I agree with this statement.
Players want to feel like they have agency in the game they're playing and the plots happening around them. They're much more likely to engage and keep coming back if you keep things fresh, exciting, and interesting, and reward them for the effort they're putting in.
I come from an RPI, so rewards and involvement look a bit different than in a MUSH setting, but overall I think the best way to keep proactive players is to make sure their activity is noticed and appreciated.
But see, "The fun of your game" is what the non-proactive players get, just for showing up. The proactive ones should be encouraged to continue being so, or they won't be so, and then the game is less fun for everyone.
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A lot of good stuff has already been mentioned so I'm hardly adding anything new or insightful. But as a player who has been both proactive and inactive, I can give my personal opinion on things.
The most important thing for me is to be able to affect the world my character is in, mostly because not being able to do so makes me feel as though my character is not really a part of the world he/she is supposed to exist in. That's an immediate disconnect from my character and I'll quickly fade from the game.
Rewarding active people is definitely a plus, but that's trickier than it sounds, in my opinion. If you just give blanket rewards you get a bunch of people who do forced, stale plots just to earn the rewards as well as people who do forced, stale RP in order to reap them player-side. That's my biggest gripe with +events. You have to reward the good type of proactive player without encouraging the bad kind to continue. Some people would say there's no bad type of proactive player, but I'd disagree. Depending on the type of person and how they influence the game, sometimes it hurts more than it helps, if only in the long run. That should not be encouraged.
Engaging their characters is probably the best way to reward others who are beneficial to the game and creating an environment where people who provide entertainment for others always has a ready and willing source of entertainment for themselves would be ideal. Having a set ST for those type of players is a good start.
Also for those looking for hooks WoD had a stat for that. I forget what it was called - because it became so useless, I guess. Ambitions or something like that. But rather than being used for STs to tell stories people wanted, it just became a way for people to farm themselves xp. If it was used for what it was intended to be used for by WoD, it would be a great system to tell the type of stories people want to play. I'd recommend doing something like that which people can make public (but not attaching xp to it - unless that xp is to the scene runner for including it). So if I'm running a scene and I look over the things the players in my scene want to do or experience, maybe I can fit some in without altering my scene much. In fact, the new, random elements could give the scene a greater life than it would have otherwise had.
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The farming/grinding scenes is definitely an issue, a serious one in many instances, I have seen people run 5+ scenes a week on a game to harvest the resulting goodies and have each of them a formulaic and fairly brief 'plot' that was basically a shitty fight or something, quickly resolved then also handing out goodies in 'reward' to the people who took part.
To be honest I feel the best option is to just have whoever runs a scene free to get +voted or +praised or whatever especially if those 'rewards' are a moderately limited resource. Arx works pretty well there (worked? I am talking about experienced from a year ago). If you host a party or a tournament or whatever then provided you 'remind' people the +praise command exists by using it for somebody else as things are wrapping up then it generally lead to a fair few people following on giving them to the event runner.
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@warma-sheen Aspirations are what you're looking for, and it kinda falls flat since almost every 2e game I've seen with them also doesn't have much in the way of STs that can actually see or know what a players aspirations are unless they're staff or the players openly show them off in some capacity.
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@apos said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
All it takes is staff tolerating a single negative, whiny player that shows up to stories and makes unreasonable demands. If they tolerate Negative Nancy or Whining William, that proactive player's drive is dead. And staff not saying, 'Sorry, you don't fit in here, best of luck to you, William' means that you are saying, 'We are keeping William, and it's okay if he drives off Driven Dave or Proactive Paula'. So all the tools in the world are worthless if staff and players are unwilling to enforce an environment that keeps a high standard of behavior.
It would be nice if everyone were positive and enthusiastic, but that's really just not realistic. People are people, and if we start banning folks for simply not being proactive enough, you're going to quickly find yourself with an empty game.
If Driven Dave is going to be discouraged by a bit of negativity, then he's really not that driven after all.
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@faraday said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
If Driven Dave is going to be discouraged by a bit of negativity, then he's really not that driven after all.
Somebody really, really does not need to be 'that driven' to drive a lot of stuff and be proactively involved though. I am admittedly not in the best mental state right now (or recently) but it only takes 1-2 of the 'right' people giving the wrong vibe to potentially kill my enthusiasm for playing on a game.
One creepy stalker, one person who is ICly in charge of your character starting to complain that your event takes into account X but they think X sucks and so it is unfair for people who think X sucks, etc. At some point things cross over from a fun relaxation diversion to 'I am going to play a computer game this evening or go to the pub instead.'
Do that for a few days then personally I find it hard to log back in again.
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@packrat said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
One creepy stalker, one person who is ICly in charge of your character starting to complain that your event takes into account X but they think X sucks and so it is unfair for people who think X sucks, etc. At some point things cross over from a fun relaxation diversion to 'I am going to play a computer game this evening or go to the pub instead.'
Creepy stalkers should be dealt with harshly. But anyone who puts out creative work for strangers' consumption (which includes game plots/stories) needs to be prepared for some amount of criticism. That's just life. If that's too discouraging, then sure -
don't play. But the idea that a game-runner can possibly police a game of all negativity is just absurd. -
@tat said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
I coded something like this for Alpha & Omega. You hit +gmscene, and it spit out either an NPC(s) + an action, or a scenario.
Kind of reminds me of this Star Trek script written by a bot.
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@faraday said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
It would be nice if everyone were positive and enthusiastic, but that's really just not realistic. People are people, and if we start banning folks for simply not being proactive enough, you're going to quickly find yourself with an empty game.
I don't think Apos was talking about people who are simply not proactive; I think he is talking about people who are actively negative. If you let them persist on your game, you're going to quickly find yourself with an empty game because that bullshit gets old really fast.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
I don't think Apos was talking about people who are simply not proactive; I think he is talking about people who are actively negative. If you let them persist on your game, you're going to quickly find yourself with an empty game because that bullshit gets old really fast.
The examples given were "10 people making sadface emoticons of how no one loves them and takes them to plots, or bitching that one person on their plot got a shiny, or someone whining that Proactive Paul gets to go on every story and on and on and on"
Even good players while and complain sometimes. Even I whine and complain sometimes and I'm one of the most "can't we all just play nice and get along" crusaders on these boards. I think people need to be mature enough to take complaints with a grain of salt. Now if it's bordering on abusive or being so constant and obnoxious that it's causing a disruption, that's different. But kicking someone off the game just for whining? Come on.
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@faraday said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
Even good players while and complain sometimes.
I guess I don't agree here. I've met a lot of good players, and the single, consistent aspect they have is that they do not complain on a consistent basis about the game on the game itself. Complaining about not having enough time to play, or about life, or about being a Maple Leafs fan is not the same as complaining about a game, its staff, and its policies when you are connected to it.
Even I whine and complain sometimes and I'm one of the most "can't we all just play nice and get along" crusaders on these boards. I think people need to be mature enough to take complaints with a grain of salt.
I think you are far too critical of yourself.
Now if it's bordering on abusive or being so constant and obnoxious that it's causing a disruption, that's different. But kicking someone off the game just for whining? Come on.
Maybe we differ as to what we consider "so constant and obnoxious that it's causing a disruption." I think our lines are different here.
In my opinion, if you've a problem with a game take it to a +request or @mail or page. I've had long, long, long conversations with people about decisions in the past. I don't mind engaging. But if you're taking to the Public Channel as to how you disagree with so-and-so or this-and-that, I may very well pull you aside and say "stop that shit." And if it continues again, I don't remind removing a player for not doing as they were asked because this demonstrates a general disregard for what I consider to be a reasonable request by staff.
I have been called harsh and draconian, and this is mostly true when it comes to staffing. But that's also why people have asked me to be staff, because I'm okay with being harsh and draconian.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
I guess I don't agree here. I've met a lot of good players, and the single, consistent aspect they have is that they do not complain on a consistent basis about the game.
I hear a lot of complaints about games (both my own and ones I'm playing on) even from people I like and respect and consider good players. Even from people who generally like the game overall. Maybe I'm not harsh and draconian enough and people feel more willing to complain to me? Maybe we're talking about different levels of complaining? Dunno.
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I have edited my response slightly. I'm talking about complaining about the game while on the game, which is what I think Apos is getting at.
We're two different people! If we ran a game together, you'd be the good cop, and that's okay with me. But, as I said, I don't mind complaints or whining as long as they aren't broadcasted because I think that has a very negative effect on a group of players.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
We're two different people! If we ran a game together, you'd be the good cop, and that's okay with me. But, as I said, I don't mind complaints or whining as long as they aren't broadcasted because I think that has a very negative effect on a group of players.
Whereas I think that welcoming and responding to feedback - even in a public venue - is an important way of building trust and rapport with players as long as that feedback is delivered in a calm and respectful manner. So yeah, I think we just draw the line in different places and that's okay. :fistbump:
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@saulot said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
@warma-sheen Aspirations are what you're looking for, and it kinda falls flat since almost every 2e game I've seen with them also doesn't have much in the way of STs that can actually see or know what a players aspirations are unless they're staff or the players openly show them off in some capacity.
I feel like that's a fixable problem.
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@lisse24 said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
@saulot said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
@warma-sheen Aspirations are what you're looking for, and it kinda falls flat since almost every 2e game I've seen with them also doesn't have much in the way of STs that can actually see or know what a players aspirations are unless they're staff or the players openly show them off in some capacity.
I feel like that's a fixable problem.
I don't disagree. However, I'm not sure if there are a lot of people that want to fix it or have it fixed. I've gotten enough of an earful on people preferring their stats and quibbles not being known in the public in any form. This is why what I work on has sheets and the whole shebang visible to everybody.
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@saulot said in Encouraging Proactive Players:
I don't disagree. However, I'm not sure if there are a lot of people that want to fix it or have it fixed. I've gotten enough of an earful on people preferring their stats and quibbles not being known in the public in any form. This is why what I work on has sheets and the whole shebang visible to everybody.
I once suggested a system that had immediate goals/aspirations that were visible to everyone and long-term/secret goals/aspirations that were only visible to staff. That might be a middle ground for people who aren't quite ready to throw everything about their character out there in public.
