Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.

Derp

I don't mind its existence. I just think that the mud needs to be kept there, and it should remain muddy. Not bloody. No teeth, no bone chips. There needs to be certain 'beyond the pale' limits even in the Pit, and the mud from the Pit needs to remain squarely in the Pit.

I wouldn't mind seeing it gone. I don't mind seeing it stay. But there definitely needs to be a bar there.

Three-Eyed Crow

@surreality said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Look at the shit Nemesis pulled the other week. He's all over the forum, in Pit and notably in various places outside the Pit calling me a liar, claiming he knows these dozens of games and forums I've been on and banned from, and so on. Not one word of this is true. I've been asked -- based on discussions here -- to not show up on two games I had no intention of ever playing on in the first place, and that's the closest I've come to getting banned from anything, anywhere, ever; I've never even had staff 'have to pull me aside' on a game I've played on about something. (I also respected that, because 1. duh; 2. wasn't planning to anyway.) While I've modded on several forums, I've neither been banned from any of forum nor banned someone from one. So this shit is just blatantly and objectively untrue.

I was surprised it took as long to ban Nemesis as it did, given his rage-tour across the entire forum. He was banned eventually, at least.

Thenomain

@krmbm said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

So is the "[citation needed] but all proof/examples from the past are invalid 'cause they're old" argument.

This is a misinterpretation of what I said, but your being passive-aggressive rather than trying to find out is proving @faraday's and even @Kanye-Qwest's point: We apparently need to snark at others.

I'm not immune. I have a far deeper theory about what is OK and what is not in the way of being raw, snarky, catty, and even dramaful.

I choose to think that you are one data point in a sea of evidence that we don't have to do things this way.

faraday

@krmbm said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

So is the "[citation needed] but all proof/examples from the past are invalid 'cause they're old" argument.

If "all proof/examples from the past" boil down to "this one group of folks tried something once a decade ago and it failed" then yeah - I'm not going to consider that a very compelling argument.

If you don't like that place, don't read it. But don't try to decide for the rest of us that it has no value, and we'd all be better off without it.

I'm allowed to have my own opinion about whether such a place is a bad thing for the community just as much as you're allowed to have an opinion about whether such a place is a good thing. I'm not deciding anything because I'm not in charge. What I'm asking for is moderation to keep the dang hog pit posts where they allegedly belong.

krmbm

@thenomain said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

This is a misinterpretation of what I said, but your being passive-aggressive rather than trying to find out is proving @faraday's and even @Kanye-Qwest's point: We apparently need to snark at others.

No. This may be a misinterpretation of what @faraday said, but I maintain the validity of the point. You're welcome to believe we've all come a long way from those days and could totally sustain ourselves without the mud-slinging. History begs to differ with you, whether or not you agree that the history in question is pertinent.

I do owe @faraday an apology for misunderstanding some of her posts, though. My reading of her comments was that she wanted the Pit gone 'cause it was keeping her buddies away. If all she's asking for is that the Pit behavior stays in the Pit? That's not only reasonable; that should be a no-brainer.

So, yeah. My bad on that, @faraday. All I can say in my defense is that I haven't seen it in the threads I read, but it sucks if it's happening elsewhere.

Apos

I've never really noticed any significant difference in the hogpit and outside of it, and don't tend to notice where the threads are. Tbh to me the tone is the same, and the only difference is whether a thread is talking about something people feel strongly about or not.

Like any criticisms are going to become personal because of the nature of our hobby. All of us are creators, whether it's RP or games or code or whatever. And most people don't take criticisms of their creations or behavior so great, so pretty much any negative commentary about anything is going to swerve to the personal unless someone takes unbelievable pains to be gentle.

A lot of the advertisement threads follow this formula:

"Hi check out our game." "I tried it but the people there suck." "No maybe you suck." "No u"

And people wanna post their random flyby criticisms and throw shade without it ever being thrown at them so I dunno how you do that and make a healthy environment that allows people to talk about flaws in games or people without it becoming personal.

Thenomain

@krmbm said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

No. This may be a misinterpretation of what @faraday said, but I maintain the validity of the point. You're welcome to believe we've all come a long way from those days and could totally sustain ourselves without the mud-slinging. History begs to differ with you, whether or not you agree that the history in question is pertinent.

You used my 'citation needed', so if you weren't talking about what I was saying then you're being very confusing about it. Also I never said we've come a long way. I even said that I fall prey to shit-talk too. I also don't see myself questioning history, but saying that we can and have overcome it, which means we can again.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm seriously not getting it.

Kanye Qwest

THIS THREAD is turning into a hogpit style "no u" "no I said this read better" "no u".

Doozer

It lacks gifs though. And the kernels haven't even popped yet.

MSB is fine as it is for me cause I'm one of those, oooooh drama, glad it's not me!

Thenomain

Man, I take it all back. How you present yourself doesn't matter anymore; it's only if someone objects to it that turns a discussion into shit-talk.

I'm starting to understand what old people mean by "kids these days"....

faraday

I actually thought the discussion was pretty tame by MSB standards. Go figure.

Thenomain

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Your mom.

She is a very nice woman thank you very much.

faraday

@thenomain said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Your mom.

She is a very nice woman thank you very much.

I'm sure she's quite lovely.

@apos said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

And people wanna post their random flyby criticisms and throw shade without it ever being thrown at them so I dunno how you do that and make a healthy environment that allows people to talk about flaws in games or people without it becoming personal.

Uh... by not throwing shade? I mean, not all criticism has to be rendered with a sledgehammer, right? You can say "I don't like something" without turning it into a personal attack like "I don't like this thing you built and I think you're dumb for having built it and ZOMG can't you even see how dumb this is what's the matter with you?" There are things in this hobby that are objectively horrible and probably don't deserve kid gloves, but the vast majority of these flamefests are over disagreements as trivial as whether somebody likes chocolate or vanilla.

Rucket

@shincashay said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

It lacks gifs though. And the kernels haven't even popped yet.

MSB is fine as it is for me cause I'm one of those, oooooh drama, glad it's not me!

Listen. I posted a gif on another page. So I tried okay? And now everything's all like:

burn

Thenomain

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@thenomain said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Your mom.

She is a very nice woman thank you very much.

I'm sure she's quite lovely.

I hope that your mother also treats you well, if she has not passed on and if so you have my condolences.

Doozer

@rucket And now this page has a gif. Please don't fall behind on expectations kthx.

Apos

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@apos said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

And people wanna post their random flyby criticisms and throw shade without it ever being thrown at them so I dunno how you do that and make a healthy environment that allows people to talk about flaws in games or people without it becoming personal.

Uh... by not throwing shade? I mean, not all criticism has to be rendered with a sledgehammer, right? You can say "I don't like something" without turning it into a personal attack like "I don't like this thing you built and I think you're dumb for having built it and ZOMG can't you even see how dumb this is what's the matter with you?" There are things in this hobby that are objectively horrible and probably don't deserve kid gloves, but the vast majority of these flamefests are over disagreements as trivial as whether somebody likes chocolate or vanilla.

Yeah I agree completely but I think in order to do that the mods would have to be really proactive about snipping things that are provocative without even meaning to be in order to keep it civil. Like for example, someone could say, 'I don't like softcode'. Fine, okay. No one would object to that. Then how about, 'Softcode is stupid, it should not be used anymore. I can't believe anyone would seriously do it with the options available. The 90s called, they want their code back.' Now that's getting provocative, and it's phrased in a way that's combative. That's not a personal attack, but of course some people would take it personally, and it's understandable if they do. The problem is that I think people would only be chill with moderating the really, really egregious things that go miles past that, and that over the top stuff only happens when someone is crazy (hi @Nemesis ) or long after the first mild provocations spiraled into that, and it would have to be snipped earlier to keep things civil imo.

Thenomain

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

"I don't like this thing you built and I think you're dumb for having built it and ZOMG can't you even see how dumb this is what's the matter with you?"

But we're not very good at either offering nor seeing creative criticism, either. "I don't like this thing because x, y and z" is not the same as "I don't like this thing because x, y and z are stupid", but this is how we often say and/or see it, even when it's not meant. It's ironic how communications is not our strong suit.

It certainly doesn't help when people interject with comments designed to push the conversation toward the absurd (looking in the mirror too, here) which can disrupt already tenuous attempts at what is tantamount to diplomacy. Maybe if we weren't so sensitive about our darlings or so used to people being dickwads at us we wouldn't be so sensitive or paranoid, but it's a reality that needs worked on.

Without people pretending like Heath Ledger's Joker had a point. That shit just be cray.

Derp

@Apos It's almost like people would have to learn how to engage in civil conversation with at least a moderately measured tone. I don't see that as a downside.

faraday

@derp said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@Apos It's almost like people would have to learn how to engage in civil conversation with at least a moderately measured tone. I don't see that as a downside.

I think the overwhelming majority of people here are capable of doing so. They just don't, in large part because they aren't expected to. It's like some kind of Radical Honesty experiment. Then we wonder why people get bent out of shape and things escalate to dramallama levels and otherwise-interesting discussions get derailed off into the hog pit.