Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.

[Lithium]

@surreality To be fair, Ganymede /has/ pointed it out when it occurred, and /nobody listened/.

She was actively agreeing with me, and nobody cared. They kept raging on me, and just let her slide. She pointed this out multiple times as it happened.

So the prospect of a 'voice' being powerful? Maybe in other situations. Here? Not so much.

[surreality]

@lithium I haven't seen it save for once in the previous administration thread, but I'm more than willing to take your word for it. (There are a lot of threads I've opted out of because they aren't stuff I'm into, so this is more than possible!)

[Thenomain]

A note especially to @Arkandel, but for all three admins: It seemed to work decently when you said in a thread a simple “Guys, enough.”

I think that Auspice’s responses are too jokey and Ganymede’s too trying-to-be-factual. (edit: this makes Auspice the new Thenomain and Ganymede the new Emmahsue. Go figure.)

“Enough” is the warning. “No, really, stop it” is the final warning, then...well, everyone will have their opinion on what comes next, but this is how I think you could very easily make it work without working more than you do now.

[Auspice]

@thenomain said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I think that Auspice’s responses are too jokey and Ganymede’s too trying-to-be-factual. (edit: this makes Auspice the new Thenomain and Ganymede the new Emmahsue. Go figure.)

Ugh, I don't want to be the new anything.

That said, I try for levity because when I'm more firm, it usually comes back with a panic because of the heavy handedness. A 'YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE SO MEAN I DIDN'T REALIZE...'

Which is a crock of shit. Y'all are intelligent adults. You know what you're doing. We choose to play games that require we write for hours on end. That's mildly insane in this day and age. We are, by and far, above average in IQ, and I treat you all as such.

Which is why I go for the more light-hearted in my responses. Because I know you know what you're doing. I shouldn't need to tell you to back off, but obviously I have to, so don't make me break out the mallet.

Or, do. We can have fun. >.>

[Apos]

I don't think splitting threads that are going off on long tangents or dominating a conversation is that big a deal. I can only speak for myself but I wouldn't care if something I posted got split into its own thread or whatever.

[Lithium]

@apos said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I don't think splitting threads that are going off on long tangents or dominating a conversation is that big a deal. I can only speak for myself but I wouldn't care if something I posted got split into its own thread or whatever.

I can see why it would be seen as a negative, for example:

I am a bitch to someone on a thread I should not be being a raging bitch to. It snowballs, then it gets split into it's own thread on the hog pit.

In a way that is not /disallowing/ the bitchyness, it is just relocating it.

If it was flat out deleted and hard 'STOP IT' was given then it's more enforcement of the rules rather than a gentle 'This does not belong here' type of thing.

[Roz]

I think it'd be more than fair for the mods to just start deleting posts and telling people to relocate if they want to have those conversations. And give people warnings for repeat behavior.

[Wizz]

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

There are things in this hobby that are objectively horrible and probably don't deserve kid gloves, but the vast majority of these flamefests are over disagreements as trivial as whether somebody likes chocolate or vanilla.

Hands-down the ugliest, most vicious slapfight I recall on this site that got so bitter and personal that I remember sitting there scrolling through with my mouth hanging open was over someone deciding to close their own Transformers game.

Like, that 80's cartoon about goofy neon colored robots that turn into putt-putt cars.

All of us never forget how silly all of this really is plz

[TNP]

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I don't disagree with you. Thus, I quit mushing and scaled my involvement here way back.

Isn't that backwards? I'd think you should quit MSB and scale back Mu*ing if you want to avoid negativity.

By that, I mean that it's a lot easier to have fun on a Mu* than here since so much of MSB and the Hog Pit is all about negativity while you can just play with people you enjoy playing with on a Mu*.

I know you apped once or twice on M:1963 but never seemed to be able to get into it. Which is a shame since I know several people who always enjoyed playing with you and would still like to do so (myself included).

[surreality]

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Because I know you know what you're doing. I shouldn't need to tell you to back off, but obviously I have to, so don't make me break out the mallet.

...it depends. (Take a drink!)

I think it's fair to say that tone comes across badly in text sometimes. That's a hurdle. It's a hurdle even for the best writers.

It's not uncommon for things to come across differently than the author intends.

And even then, I do think things get away from people sometimes as part of basic human nature. 'Step back' is the best advice, but when someone is in the moment in which they likely should step back, it's also often enough the very moment in which that advice is the furthest thing from someone's mind because they're so focused on what is going on.

Annnnnnd on top of all of that, a lot of folks assume they know what someone else is doing... and are actually wrong. Happened to me just the other day and I felt bad about it when it was pointed out. I've been on the other side of that one a lot, too.

[Roz]

@tnp I mean, I think at this point @Sunny has identified the areas she wants or needs to pull back on for her own peace of mind, has done some of the pulling back, and already said she knows she should probably pull back more on MSB but that it's a process. I don't think anything is really gained by people belaboring what she should or shouldn't do to take care of herself; she only seemed to bring it up for some context regarding her feedback for the thread. I imagine she can generally trust herself to decide what she needs.

[Auspice]

@surreality said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Annnnnnd on top of all of that, a lot of folks assume they know what someone else is doing... and are actually wrong. Happened to me just the other day and I felt bad about it when it was pointed out. I've been on the other side of that one a lot, too.

When I say 'I know you know what you're doing,' I mean the people engaging in attacks, et al outside of the Hog Pit.

Those that do these things know they should not be doing it. They do it anyway. It's like when my goddamn cat sneaks up around the end table and reaches a paw up to hook a claw over the basket I keep keys and such in. He knows he shouldn't and he specifically tries to get out of my line of sight to do it.

I shouldn't have to tell him no. I shouldn't have to get the spray bottle. He knows he's being bad! He tries to get away with it anyway.

That's the sort of thing I mean.

You know what you're doing when you snipe at someone outside the Hog Pit.
I know you know.
I shouldn't have to call you (general you) out.

As for deleting posts? @Arkandel has generally not been a fan. I guess because of a fear of people getting really upset if their posts suddenly disappear (there's also the issue that quotes don't disappear, I suppose). But if people are okay with it, I will totally start going in and just deleting the offending posts.

It's much easier anyway. Go go laziness.

[Roz]

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

As for deleting posts? @Arkandel has generally not been a fan. I guess because of a fear of people getting really upset if their posts suddenly disappear (there's also the issue that quotes don't disappear, I suppose). But if people are okay with it, I will totally start going in and just deleting the offending posts.

It's much easier anyway. Go go laziness.

People will totally be upset. But folks are absolutely correct that people will also be more likely to learn to follow the rules with some more clear consequences.

[Ganymede]

@surreality said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Arkandel asked us as forum participants to call this behavior out when we see it. And mod or not, you are also a forum participant.

I did, as Lithium can attest to.

I even called myself out on the double-standard issue, and revealed an embarrassing incident where I went so far out of character I didn't know how to apologize properly. For months.

What I have noticed is that, when one of us mods says "please stop," there's pushback. There's pushback from whomever the mod may have replied to, even if the post is worded to apply to everyone. There's pushback from those who aren't even involved, who want to weigh in on whether there should have been any response. There was a very vocal discussion on whether or not we should preface messages with "MOD VOICE" to distinguish tones. And the personal tone of some of the reproaching words directed at Auspice was nothing short of outrageous to me.

If people -- all y'all -- want someone like me, Arkandel, or Auspice to step in and tell you when you've gone too far based on our own subjective opinion on what "too far" means? I'm really okay with that. What I've noticed, however, is that when we do that we often stir up more trouble than the trouble we sought to quell.

Of late, though, Arkandel has had good reasons, and I trust in his judgment.

Personally? I don't really care if the Hog Pit goes. I don't have the time or the energy to muster up a Raptor-like takedown, and reading what sometimes gets flung over there is more tedious than entertaining. For the past few years, I've had more fun, entertainment, and lively discussion outside of it. I might miss it, but I don't think so.

[Auspice]

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

And the personal tone of some of the reproaching words directed at Auspice was nothing short of outrageous to me.

I can handle a fair bit, but man.

Everyone's got a breaking point and those hit mine. I didn't cry (which is good 'cause I was at work for a good chunk of that), but it was crushing. I really didn't realize until that point how much most of you guys honestly, truly hate me.

And that's why: while I will gladly delete posts, put people on 1-3 day suspension cool downs, and other methods of heavier management... I'm a bit hesitant. I can deal with snippy posts and a bit of back and forth.

I can't really handle spending 1-2 days a week of a thread full of vitriolic threats and hate (which is what I fear would happen if we begin moderating more heavily) because those threads stay out of the Pit since I feel it's fair for the whole board to see criticism against the moderation and I don't want those moved to the Pit since it'd (understandably) be viewed as said criticism being swept under the rug.

But it's crushing.

[Sunny]

@auspice

I am very, very sorry for my part in that. The way that I handled my issues was unfair to you. I am sorry that I hurt you.

ETA: I don't hate you.

[Auspice]

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@auspice

I am very, very sorry for my part in that. The way that I handled my issues was unfair to you. I am sorry that I hurt you.

ETA: I don't hate you.

Thank you.

It's just... hard to imagine the amount of ... vitriol, effort, and such put into some of what gets said around here not be grounded in hate sometimes. I know sometimes I'll start a post and then just... not? because it's like man, I could be doing so many better things right now. This is a lot of effort for something upsetting.

And for the sheer amount of time that went on it was just like, 'wow. these people really, really think I'm worthless.'

It's hard not to feel hated some days. Esp. when I lack the posse some folks have. I'm super bad at cultivating those. I always forget to go to the pet store to buy kibble, y'know? Or is it plant food? See, I'm the worst possemom.

[Sunny]

@auspice

Pretty sure some of us have the worm song playing on auto-repeat in our heads.

(Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, guess I'll go eat worms...)

That isn't just you.

ETA: And by that I mean you aren't alone.

[surreality]

@ganymede I do believe you -- but like I said, you both participate in discussions I'm not really involved in. For instance, there's only one of the Arx threads I don't have on 'ignore thread' entirely, and even that one I only skim once in a blue if there's nothing else with new stuff -- and I know you're both actively chatty about those subjects individually, so if it happened there? It's gonna be invisible to me as anything in the politics forum is.

The mod voice thing was, actually, the time I remember you stepping in this way. The same folk had complained about the lack of distinction, then about the distinction. You said something. It made a difference. It didn't resolve it, no -- but it did remind the typically more reasonable people in that discussion that the contradiction in what was being demanded wasn't reasonable, and those people did ease down off the throttle.

Resolve? No. But a difference. And it's not an insignificant difference.

Being brutally honest? Some people just want to watch the world burn. Some people just want to wank their grudges. Some people will not see reason, or simply will never give someone who slighted them once a shred of benefit of the doubt ever again.

Nothing I'm talking about is going to change these people, but appeals to the reasonable people -- who I think are the vast majority of posters here -- that they have sometimes swayed into little hate cliques or dogpile teams or commiseration spirals or gossip circles strips support from the truly intractable hate-spewers and bullies.

That isn't a short-term gain broadly, but it is a long game well worth pursuing.

[Rucket]

@auspice I don't hate you. You're okay. Sometimes.