Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.

[Wretched]

Excuse me. I haven't held down a job in 11+ years THANKYOUVERYMUCH. I was smart and married a sugarmama. #Iwinatlife Don't lump be in with responsible job havers.

[Coin]

I put that everything is perfect because I like to lie.

[Arkandel]

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Yes, some of us give a damn. We've just been outvoted. (to wit: look at the poll)

Although we've discussed this sort of thing in private I wanted to make a public comment here.

MSB isn't a democracy. If I thought not having a Hog Pit was the best option for us as a community then that's what we'd have now; no, what happened is that I was convinced to go that way based on the arguments made at the time.

At first what I was concerned about was censorship. It used to be MU* were heavily 'moderated' and I intentionally put that word in quotes; the truth is they were censored. Many still are. There are consequences for speaking against those who run them, which is a large reason why this forum exists - if there is something to be aired then it can be, and neither my views nor @Ganymede's or @Auspice's matter. The more we intervene the higher the chance someone will social engineer their way into ensuring certain narratives are less visible than others - as we are human ( * ). MSB values free speech - with very few exceptions ( ** ) you can speak your mind whether you like us or we like you.

But also the Hog Pit exists because cliques are a thing in this hobby. I don't want anyone having to second guess whose side we're on - because it frankly doesn't matter. That's not a luxury which, by nature, staff have on most game; they need to make calls, assign traits, bestow ranks and positions so their favor carries weight. On MSB it simply doesn't matter if we're besties since I, by design, can't do much to help you if you screw up. Yes, that also means I can't do much to help you if you're the one getting screwed over. But you don't want me as part of a clique and I don't want the appearance that I might to be in one, as there shouldn't be such a thing as 'forum politics'. We need to be peers or this system doesn't work.

Finally, I appreciate the honesty in this thread. I didn't ask you guys to evaluate us as human beings, just as administrators on an internet forum, and constructive thoughts are always welcome even (or even especially if) you disagree with some of the choices made in running it.

(*) Okay, two thirds of us are human.

(**) Come on, not being openly racist isn't too much to ask.

[faraday]

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

MSB isn't a democracy. If I thought not having a Hog Pit was the best option for us as a community then that's what we'd have now; no, what happened is that I was convinced to go that way based on the arguments made at the time.

Just to clarify my comment about voting ... I wasn't meaning to imply that you blindly cater to the whim of the majority. My point was that the majority want this. If the majority of posters were willing to limit their criticisms to mature, fact-based commentary ("Hey, I advise y'all not play on this game because the staff constantly shows favoritism to its inner circle and here are examples...") and the majority of posters were willing to limit their responses to mature rebuttals ("I think you're wrong about that because here are my reasons...") then we wouldn't need a Hog Pit. But sadly, that's not what the majority wants. So threads even in the constructive section devolve into childish spats of "you're a jerk!" "no you're a jerk!".

Nobody (that I've seen) is asking for a happy rainbow sunshine place where nobody disagrees or criticizes. Very few people are even calling for the destruction of the Hog Pit. All some of us are asking for is more moderation in the constructive area so that people aren't afraid to even post for fear of being dogpiled. Because that's a thing that happens here. As @surreality and @Derp pointed out, people are made to feel like crap for sport. People are driven into silence, unwilling to post. People are reluctant to even come to the forum because of its reputation. ("Wow, you're on MSB? Girl, why?!?!" is something I hear regularly.)

You feel those things are necessary evils in order to have a forum that supports free speech with no apparent hint of bias. I respect your right to make that decision because you are the moderators of the forum. Most of the time I manage to bite my tongue and not complain about it. But if, on a thread like this, opinions are solicited about the moderation policy, I'm going to speak my opinion that the current policy is a Bad Idea for the MU community.

[Arkandel]

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

As @surreality and @Derp pointed out, people are made to feel like crap for sport. People are driven into silence, unwilling to post. People are reluctant to even come to the forum because of its reputation. ("Wow, you're on MSB? Girl, why?!?!" is something I hear regularly.)

For dogpiling within the Hog Pit itself my advice is... don't be in it. (Generic) you don't need to opt-in, so stay out!

For having it done outside of the Hog Pit, which is a concern I often have - I want the toxicity to be contained - I'm open to suggestions. What can we do as a compromise between censorship or the appearance of clique-ism by the admins, yet keep cliques from doing their thing to their enemies of the day?

Most of the time I manage to bite my tongue and not complain about it. But if, on a thread like this, opinions are solicited about the moderation policy, I'm going to speak my opinion that the current policy is a Bad Idea for the MU community.

And you should speak your opinion, not just on a thread like this but anywhere.

As far as I'm concerned if MSB plays a significant role in the community it's by ensuring that it simply exists. MU* are islands by default; you play with Steve Rogers today and he's great, then tomorrow he's gone. How do you find them again? How do they find you? People leave the hobby then come back, they screw up and get their act straight, games open and close... but this forum is always here. I don't want anyone to feel like they don't belong, and I greatly dislike the idea someone might be aghast by the notion others frequent this place because of a reputation we have.

Yet to be honest, if we have such a reputation it is because we've earned it, by definition. All I can say in our collective defense is that there is also an upside to our existence which hopefully justifies its downsides.

[Derp]

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

What can we do as a compromise between censorship or the appearance of clique-ism by the admins, yet keep cliques from doing their thing to their enemies of the day?

Simple: You set clear boundaries, and you enforce them. If the purpose of the Hog Pit is to be an unmoderated free for all, then everywhere else needs to be moderated. The administration cannot be afraid of 'oh god what about censorship and free speech' in the rest of the board.(1)

I understand that's a real concern. But that's also part of what it means to take responsibility and run the show. You can't do that hands-off. It requires you to actively put hands on it, enforce rules in a clear fashion, and not be afraid of looking like a censor. There is a difference between an unpopular viewpoint and an unacceptable behavior that just happens to be tangential to an unpopular point of view. The behaviors need to be moderated.

(1) Purely Opinion, as additional commentary: Hell, you shouldn't even put up with the jerkass ad hominen attacks in the Hog Pit, either, because they're just doing more damage than good. Nobody here should ever be made to feel unwelcome or attacked by some of these groups, PERIOD. You wanna shit post about a topic, a game, current events, cool. But MSB members themselves, at a bare minimum, should be given at least a modicum of respect even if they aren't being called something racist, sexist, etc.

[Ganymede]

@arkandel

There's so much I want to say in response. I'll try to be brief.

Telling people to stay out of the Hog Pit to avoid dogpiling is akin to telling black people to obey the law when they have been killed by law enforcement time and time again for doing nothing illegal. The problem is the dogpiling, which can understandably have a chilling effect on any kind of speech here. And let's not pretend that the dogpiling occurs only within the Hog Pit; it clearly and demonstrably has happened elsewhere, which is why we have to haul threads out of other areas into the Hog Pit.

But let's also not pretend that there are easy fixes, because, if there were, we probably would have already implemented them.

That said, any maybe to surreality's consternation, but I stand by every word I said before. The number of regular, frequent posters in the Hog Pit pales to the actual number of people that read or post here. I'm well-aware that I have a great deal of privilege because, for whatever reason, I'm not usually a target when I make comments, no matter how wrong or controversial my opinion might be. And I'm not going to pretend that I can walk in anyone's shoes and process experiences as they might, because I think that belittles their experience.

---

@derp said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Simple: You set clear boundaries, and you enforce them. If the purpose of the Hog Pit is to be an unmoderated free for all, then everywhere else needs to be moderated. The administration cannot be afraid of 'oh god what about censorship and free speech' in the rest of the board.

There's a difference between fear and balancing interests.

We live in a society of laws away from this place. These laws are boundaries. They are the boundaries of conduct, and we charge law enforcement officers to enforce these laws to the best of their ability. Our expectations are reasonable because, in society, the people have given law enforcement officers this duty and authority because we the people are neither empowered nor permitted to do the same by the law. We observe and experience, and, at a trial, we judge and determine.

In this scenario, the admins are law enforcement, and the members are the people.

There are problems when law enforcement is asked to create the law. It's easy to see why. Yet when we are asked to do so, we contend with the multiple forces that exists within the membership here, which is to be expected. And we listen as best we can, but, at the end of the day, can find very few clear lines of conduct to censor unanimously. Every other boundary is discretionary, in some way -- and therefore unclear.

The solution isn't so simple. It's not supposed to be simple, and, if it were, the admin would be heavier-handed. There has been push-back about that, which we've tried to respect. Naturally, we expect that our current more laissez-faire approach has also created push-back.

What's important is the discussion, and here it is. And I can tell you that we're talking about changes, but haven't made up our collective minds.

[Ganymede]

This post is deleted!

[Auspice]

Personally, I feel we could do without the Hog Pit. I engage there.

I shouldn't.

It's not healthy. It's not good for me, it's not good for the community. It doesn't do anything positive in the end. Who am I helping? Definitely not myself. But as a moderator, I'm gonna see it and I'm a damn squirrel (ADHD, ahoy!) and I can't not. Like any red blooded American, I am drawn to drama (why you think we got all these shitty reality TV shows?). Pass me the fucking popcorn.

But what I am here on MSB for -- what I love it for -- are the community posts (RL Things I Love, MU* Things I Love, etc., silly games we play) and the Mildly Constructive forum. We've seen game ideas come out of that, we've discussed mechanics. We have some great How To threads (that I would love to see collected into a Knowledge Base on future forum software; I'm building pros and cons lists on a new platform if we migrate away from nodebb and some of them do have KB platforms built in). Those are the reasons I'm here. Not the swamps.

But there are very loud and insistent voices for the Pit and... I feel we need to be able to weigh all the voices. Not just the loudest. We have a lot more members on these boards (I watch the metrics sometimes!) than we appear to. We also have members who post less frequently and members who aren't in the Pit at all (because they didn't opt-in). Do we listen to the person who posts ten times yelling for the Pit or do we listen to the three people who post once apiece saying they don't want it?

Just because someone is louder doesn't make them more important than the rest.

[Derp]

@ganymede

That's a bad analogy. Law enforcement can be held accountable and voted out. The administration is not beholden to the members here in any way except by cult of personality, and the occasional thread like this. Which makes them essentially royalty. Which doesn't work as an analogue for 'entrusted with power by the people'.

Even in our society of laws, a few people with power have had to take some unpopular actions in order to protect the minority. Almost every civil rights case has been actively against the tide of public opinion. But those actions were taken anyway, because those people needed protection despite their very existence being against the will of the majority. This may be an analogue for 'a land of laws', but it has to function in the same way.

It's only a difficult decision if you wibble about it. Sure, you risk losing popularity among some of the crowds, and that can be a concern. But it shouldn't even really be that much of a factor. You aren't elected. You don't get re-elected. The biggest revolution you can face is that you lose face in some of the catty circles, and frankly, that should be the price to play if you have admin powers. Not that I think losing face in those circles is cause enougj to give anyone pause. Ever.

You've been given power. Use it. Monarchies are the most efficient form of governance for a reason.

[Ganymede]

@derp

I disagree, and believe the analogy is apt. You have no more power to vote out Officer O'Malley than you are to vote me out.

That said, if the membership is okay with the administration acting like a monarchal oligarchy, that's fine. Let's just be clear that this is what is happening, what is expected, and what is demanded. If so, then let's also put out there that, as a monarchal oligarch, none of the admin have any responsibility to publicly inform anyone as to the basis of any decision, and, if you want to discuss the rationale about the same, all such inquiries may be made directly to me.

You okay with that?

[EmmahSue]

When considering a more active admin suite, please also keep in mind that the admins in question may not have the time, energy, or interest in that level of interaction. After all, I stepped away and handed it off because I no longer wanted to do even what little I did. Their interest in that stance plays a major factor, and if Ark at the top, and his team in general, are gonna burnout on trying to achieve it, then it's probably not worth the headache of the switch.

This requires both a clear eye to self and a willingness to speak plainly on their parts. I figure they've got at least 50-75% of that down pat. (<3 Please don't kick me off MSB o ye gods amoung mortals!)

ES

[ThatGuyThere]

@ashen-shugar said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@thatguythere said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@ashen-shugar
In your post you seem to imply that "catty, cliquish, and thrive on negativity" doesn't go along with holding a professional job. If you think that is the case you really need to work in more offices or be very grateful for the ones you have worked in.

Sure it does. But most highly professional jobs don't have this as HR tend to go down on them like a ton of bricks.

LoL HR tends to be the source of the Catty and negativity.

[Arkandel]

@emmahsue said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Their interest in that stance plays a major factor, and if Ark at the top, and his team in general, are gonna burnout on trying to achieve it, then it's probably not worth the headache of the switch.

It's not the headache that I mind, it's the nitpicking. This whole thing about administrating microaggressions seems so petty that I can't get myself interested enough to even read some threads - I'm just too lazy for that (stop gasping, @Coin). If something serious like harassment happens I definitely intend to get involved, but the he-said she-said bullshit... about some random clash of personalities, not so much.

On a certain level it also bugs me that this is needed at all. You guys shouldn't need an adult in the room - there are some really intelligent people here. Many of you run games of your own, you run businesses, you're taking care of your shit. Isn't it demeaning to require a staff of three folks to make sure we're not treating each other like shit for the most inane of reasons, in a tiny hobby of text-based make-belief games almost no one even knows exist?

On another level... well, I am on MSB a lot. It's not because I'm an admin, it's because I genuinely like you all. I like the debates we have and prize the constructive threads we come up, going into depth about designing new things and reimagining old ones. Having to interrupt that to go grumble because someone (often the same person I'm engaged in a reasonable, interesting discussing elsewhere!) called another person a fuckhead is just disrupting. Not dishearting, but it takes me out of that headspace and damn... I wish I didn't have to do that.

But I do. I still don't know why, but I do.

This requires both a clear eye to self and a willingness to speak plainly on their parts. I figure they've got at least 50-75% of that down pat. (<3 Please don't kick me off MSB o ye gods amoung mortals!)

If it was someone else I'd have assumed amoung was a typo or a spelling mistake. You made me google this crap up, and - not surprisingly - it was not. You will pay for that indignity.

[Rucket]

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

It's not healthy. It's not good for me, it's not good for the community. It doesn't do anything positive in the end.

I like a good shit show. Sometimes seeing a new post in the hog pit makes me all like

But more often than not it doesn't live up to the hype.

MORE SERIOUSLY THOUGH: While it might not be a good place, stuff like that is sometimes necessary. I feel like without the Hog Pit, we'd see some of this shit bleed over into advertisement threads, and this forum has had several experiences why that would be a bad thing. Also, people are gonna bitch. If not here, it will be somewhere (obligatory "Lets blame discord"). The Hog Pit right now is actually far more tame than it was in the past, and much tamer still than what WORA was.

As for possibly improving it. Maybe delete the MU Peeves thread. That seems like it has a lot of vaguebooking passive aggressive shit, and that can be problematic. Individual game threads to bitch about staffers being shitty or about people being creepers I'm more okay with. At least those are somewhat more informative, though there's probably a better way of wording that.

[Auspice]

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

It's not the headache that I mind, it's the nitpicking. This whole thing about administrating microaggressions seems so petty that I can't get myself interested enough to even read some threads - I'm just too lazy for that (stop gasping, @Coin). If something serious like harassment happens I definitely intend to get involved, but the he-said she-said bullshit... about some random clash of personalities, not so much.

Seriously, this.

We have all -- all -- warned administrators of games how they shouldn't mire themselves in the morass and they'd be better off not engaging or by making a single statement and walking away.

Many, many people on this board would be served well by following that same advice.

Yet a lot of people (I, @Arkandel, and @Ganymede have been guilty of the same) on the board do the same. We engage. And engage. And engage.

And some of those people will snipe back rather than walk away... and when they get rounded upon (by the person they sniped at in the first place or that person's friend), they run to us for help.

• If you nitpick at someone and they defend themselves, even if they're harsh about it... I'm not going to leap to your aid. You chose to poke the bear.
• If you continue to engage, over and over, I'm not going to leap to your aid. You could step away at any time (when the mob has come after me, I have had to do this; ask Ark about the times I've had to tell him and Gany 'Hey guys, I'm taking the evening off').

This goes hand-in-hand with my statements above about 'the loudest voice.'

If you come running to me to handle a situation, you are probably not going to like how I handle it if you are sniping just as much as the other person. Being the one to ring the bell (hit report) doesn't clear your conscience if you were dogpiling or attacking, too. I will drag you all out by the scruff if I have to.

[KDraygo]

One thing I would like to point out, at least in my experience in life is that complaints, venting, etc will usually be more numerous than comments of contentment. When someone is content on a game and having fun, there is no real reason to post about it. All is well in their MU*ing world and there is no reason to rock that world. It's when shit has hit the fan, someone feels they got slighted somehow, some creeper has shown themselves and someone wants to get the word out, that is when posts are made and more visibly.

To me the Hog Pit should be there, because stuff like this has to go somewhere. And posts like those are harder to contain/moderate without people feeling more slighted. (Why did I get modded heavier than he or she, blah blah blah.) I do agree with Ark that if do not wish to engage with the Hog Pit, the don't.

Why take the comments seriously if you feel if they have no merit. Play in your circles, if you are having fun and those you usually interact with are having fun with you, fuck the haters. Can't please everyone in the world. If something is wrong though, then your friends should be kind enough to pull you aside and give you a word of advice. Also, you should be kind enough to accept the advice and change for the better, not become defensive and lash out. In the end, it's about people and how they want to work with each other. Luckily this isn't a work place where you are forced to interact with certain people, for better or for worse.

[Haven]

@rucket said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I like a good shit show. Sometimes seeing a new post in the hog pit makes me all like

Same.

[krmbm]

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Man, karmabum, you've gotten cynical over the years.

No, I've always been this way. I just don't reply to posts that have nothing to do with me, and I don't read the ones I think are stupid or irrelevant, so I maintain my generally low-profile. BUT THANKS FOR NOTICING ME, I FEEL VALIDATED NOW!

I put in a neutral vote 'cause - seriously - it's a forum about text-based online roleplaying games. It's not perfect, and I hate the gifs (did I mention that I hate the gifs?), but the mods are fine. You guys seem like you are somehow managing to toe the line between moderating things all to hell and letting things get out of hand.

For people wondering what life would be like without the Hog Pit... dude, it's exactly the same. Someone would just make a forum called the Hog Pit. Instead of opting out of the Hog Pit on MSB, you'd just be opting out of making an account on that forum.

[Arkandel]

@kdraygo said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Why take the comments seriously if you feel if they have no merit. Play in your circles, if you are having fun and those you usually interact with are having fun with you, fuck the haters.

While this is sound advice, we can't help, or fix, or correct people - it's not in our job description. And I get it, if someone's talking shit about you, the urge is there to look and see what they had to say.

That's a separate MSB function, by the way... the ability to confront these things out in the open. Too often on a MU* - sometimes with good reason or at least for good intentions - these things are handled privately or without very good visibility, but the forum is here for those who want to out them anyway. Or it's a matter of people complaining about each other over pages and closed channels, semi-privately, where partial truths and misinformation can spread out of someone's control.

One of the functions Hog Pit plays is allowing this kind of ... let's face it, very confrontational kind of discusion, to take place in an open way. While it's not always going to go the way the OP wants, and it definitely won't necessarily grant them the closure (let alone justice) they want, it's at least there.

It's not much, but nothing we do here is.