Storytelling

[Glitch]

@Coin said:

I don't think it's unfair, provided everyone had more or less the same chance/opportunity without counting in their own actions or limitations.

If I give everyone the same chance "I am running plots Wednesdays and Sundays" and those plots lead to things such as the ones mentioned above, it's not my fault if you can't make those days because of your life/job/preferences/kids/whatever. It's not. No matter how much people want me to bend, I also have a life, and the days I am willing and able to run things are those days.

It isn't your fault, but as a game admin, it is certainly your responsibility. You'd have a lot more leeway to assert the above as just another player, but you're not.

ETA: That isn't to say you must change the days you offer plot, but addressing the problem, rather than brushing it off as something you're not willing to "bend" on, is definitely something I think is your responsibility.

[Arkandel]

See, my concern is more on the PrP side. Staff often feels obligated to run significant things through +events to give everyone access to them and that's fine, but I don't labor under the same limitation - which is by design, it's one of the reasons I'm not staffing, other than the obvious fact no one would want me to.

So as a ST my priority is to entertain my friends. I don't need to give everyone a shot at the goodies, which means coincidentally they will be the guys who rescue the Prince's cat from a tree and end up fighting pirate kings.

What I'm wondering about is if this is unfair and to what extent, since there's a very OOC factor which heavily influences IC affairs - what @Coin experiences as the perception of "staff friends are getting stuff" which is usually skewed, I view as the perception of "the ST's friends got stuff", which is pretty accurate.

[Coin]

@Glitch said:

@Coin said:

I don't think it's unfair, provided everyone had more or less the same chance/opportunity without counting in their own actions or limitations.

If I give everyone the same chance "I am running plots Wednesdays and Sundays" and those plots lead to things such as the ones mentioned above, it's not my fault if you can't make those days because of your life/job/preferences/kids/whatever. It's not. No matter how much people want me to bend, I also have a life, and the days I am willing and able to run things are those days.

It isn't your fault, but as a game admin, it is certainly your responsibility. You'd have a lot more leeway to assert the above as just another player, but you're not.

ETA: That isn't to say you must change the days you offer plot, but addressing the problem, rather than brushing it off as something you're not willing to "bend" on, is definitely something I think is your responsibility.

I agree. Which is why I am willing to give storytellers the ability to run important things and whatnot. But in my experience a lot (not most, not all, not any specific number, just a lot) of the people who complain are then completely unwilling to actually put forth the effort to find an alternative that sidesteps their own obstacles. And I have little patience for someone who complains about a lack of something and then does nothing to acquire it when they're given the possibility to create their own alternative.

[Coin]

@Arkandel said:

See, my concern is more on the PrP side. Staff often feels obligated to run significant things through +events to give everyone access to them and that's fine, but I don't labor under the same limitation - which is by design, it's one of the reasons I'm not staffing, other than the obvious fact no one would want me to.

So as a ST my priority is to entertain my friends. I don't need to give everyone a shot at the goodies, which means coincidentally they will be the guys who rescue the Prince's cat from a tree and end up fighting pirate kings.

What I'm wondering about is if this is unfair and to what extent, since there's a very OOC factor which heavily influences IC affairs - what @Coin experiences as the perception of "staff friends are getting stuff" which is usually skewed, I view as the perception of "the ST's friends got stuff", which is pretty accurate.

I don't know. No, i don't think it's unfair. Storytellers will run things for the people they want to or feel comfortable running things. It doesn't feel right to say it's "unfair" because those people have friends willing to run stuff.

Maybe it's unfair in the same way life is unfair, but it's not unfair in the way you're asking, at least, IMO.

It's also almost always "unfair" until you're getting it and others aren't, at which point it's "well, it's not our fault".

So no, I don't think it's unfair. Our hobby is roleplaying online. If you want to do that you find the people who will roleplay with you, that you get along with, and that will facilitate the story you want to tell. You certainly have no right to complain because another player is running things for other people but not for you. At least, not as far as I'm concerned.

Especially if when someone like @Ganymede offers to run stuff on channel and you sit there staring and don't say "yes please I would [ALL THIS STUFF]!" Proactivity will get you so much more than passivity.

ETA: This becomes more of an issue if staff is only willing to give Storyteller A a chance to run certain plots, but not Storyteller B. Some level of discretion is often advised, though.

There are some really bad storytellers out there.

[Ganymede]

@Coin said:

Especially if when someone like @Ganymede offers to run stuff on channel and you sit there staring and don't say "yes please I would [ALL THIS STUFF]!" Proactivity will get you so much more than passivity.

I probably am not being clear on channel. What I mean to say is:

"I'd like to RP with you, in one way, shape, or form. I'm willing to run scenes to do this, and am willing to run anything that I feel I'm capable of doing. All you really need to do is respond to this message."

What's frustrating is the silence. I may not be the best storyteller out there, but I really cannot do it if no one tells me what stories they would like to be a part of. And what kills me is that many players cannot even tell me that.

Playing on a MUSH is more than just putting a character together.

[EmmahSue]

You're not alone, @Ganymede . I sometimes get the same silence at the same offer.

ES

[Misadventure]

Players are used to being spoon fed story lines, tabletop and in video games. They select and rate your ST the same way they select and rate movies, and with as much sensation that they can request, or add to what happens. They are passive consumers. Showing up is what they contribute.

It's a habit that is hard to break, especially when you realize that otherwise creative thoughtful people just WILL NOT DO IT.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

What I've wondered about lately, probably more than I wonder about any MUSH-related thing, is if this is actually getting worse. I swear, five years ago it was not as hard as it is today to find people who do shit to play with, and I don't feel like it's strictly a matter of more activity/more games back in the day. Or maybe my rose-colored nostalgia glasses are just getting bigger. I don't know. It frustrates me more than anything else about this hobby.

[Arkandel]

I don't think this is unexpected, though. Frustrating, yes - and I feel you - but not unexpected. Most people don't know what they want until they've been served it. It's a side-effect of many people not being at all proactive; they can respond (often very well) to things but not start them out, including answering the question "what do you want to do?".

My take on it is to just start something. Even if it's not exactly what they'd prefer it beats doing nothing, and I often get input afterwards refining their expectations once they have some.

[Coin]

@Three-Eyed-Crow said:

What I've wondered about lately, probably more than I wonder about any MUSH-related thing, is if this is actually getting worse. I swear, five years ago it was not as hard as it is today to find people who do shit to play with, and I don't feel like it's strictly a matter of more activity/more games back in the day. Or maybe my rose-colored nostalgia glasses are just getting bigger. I don't know. It frustrates me more than anything else about this hobby.

It is, a little bit. But also remember: most of us are just plain getting older. I know I'm a lot less energetic than I was six or seven years ago about this stuff, and I have a lot more going on. And other people have spouses now, and children, and...

Being tired happens, and it happens a lot more the older you get. And the difference is a noticeable one even between your early twenties and early thirties.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@Coin
Oh, I'm sure that's part of it. Though I feel like I see it with newer, younger players as well in ways I didn't used to. It (whatever it is) feels more cultural than anything I can measure in hours or Other Shit To Do. I don't know. It may well be just part of my continuing morph into Old Grump Who Yells at Clouds and growing hatred for The Children, which is always continuing apace.

[Coin]

@Three-Eyed-Crow said:

@Coin
Oh, I'm sure that's part of it. Though I feel like I see it with newer, younger players as well in ways I didn't used to. It (whatever it is) feels more cultural than anything I can measure in hours or Other Shit To Do. I don't know. It may well be just part of my continuing morph into Old Grump Who Yells at Clouds and growing hatred for The Children, which is always continuing apace.

A lot of the time, people who are younger and have started recently will emulate the way people are already doing things. It's a bummer.

[thebird]

@Ganymede
I've always enjoyed RP with you, though the scenes have been few and far between.

I know sometimes, though, it sounds like when people offer to run the vague "things", they're asking for players to tell them what to run?

(Personally, I much prefer to wing it, unless it's some game-specific prp need that I generally avoid until I just can't anymore. )

Point is, I think sometimes "I'm willing to run things!" sounds super vague and like you (general you) don't necessarily know what's going on. Whether or not that's the case. Text is an irritating and fickle medium with which to get one's point across.

For all STs out there, maybe something more like "I'm willing to brainstorm prp things!" Might be received better. People are strange, and tend to respond better to even the slightest coaxing.

I know I'm more inclined to respond to something that implies teamwork, rather than something that sounds on the surface like "give me your already thought out ideas to spit back at you, in which I will have no fun doing at all".
Again. Generally speaking. I don't ever want to be in a scene that the ST doesn't have fun with.

That was even more rambly than usual... More caffeine, stat...

/twocents

[Faceless]

1. Have an ending in mind. It doesn't have to be the ending that you eventually come to, but it helps me in planning out a plot. A scenario like a scene in a movie. How did the Terminator end up in that foundry at the end of Terminator 2? Fill in the blanks to that ending and you've established some milestones for a story. None of these milestones may ever be used but you've at least given yourself the general outline of what you'd like the players to pursue.

2. Use the rules. The books have rules. Use the rules. Knowing the rules of the game both helps inspire some sense of confidence in the storyteller as someone who knows what they're doing, and further makes it possible to help teach those who don't have gold medals in Rules 101. Don't know a rule? Looks like an opportunity to learn something new. There isn't a rule? Make something up that makes sense on the fly. Don't bog down your story mid-scene to get an answer, come back to it later and find an answer from staff or someone else who may know where you can find the rule. Also don't be afraid to take advice from a player who may know a rule. On the flipside, don't be the rules lawyer player who disrupts a scene because you want to show how obnoxiously super-smart you are.

3. Get to know other players on your game. I don't mean that you have to tell Joe all about your wife, kids, cat named Sally, or your used condom collection. What I do mean is that the more of a visible presence you are on channels and joining in on the general banter, the more likely it is that people are going to feel comfortable approaching you later in pages to ask about the possibility of running a plot. They say one of the reasons the dog barks at the mailman so much is because he can see him, but not interact with him. He's an anomaly in the dog's territory. So don't be afraid to let the other players smell your hand. Some players may want to smell more though, so be careful.

4. Be willing to accept people outside your clique. It's great to run things for your friends, but MUSHing at this point is social networking. The more you reach out to or otherwise make your stories available to people you normally don't have frequent contact with, the more you network. Networking is good.

5. Run what you're going to have fun running. As has been mentioned previously in the lists of other posters, most players don't know what they want. So run what you're going to enjoy. If you build it, the players will come.

6. Give the players options. Fight, talk, run, drop a piano on the villain, whatever it is. Options let the players know that they have control over their destiny. Even if they walk their characters into a possible death, they made a choice.

7. For the participants out there: don't just offer up the canned "thanks, it was fun" at the end of a plot, event, scene, or whatever. If it was fun, please inform me in a @mail, pages, or right then why it was fun. What did you enjoy? If I get the "thanks, it was fun" and nothing else at the end of something I tend to believe that they're just being polite and something didn't suit their tastes. What could I work on? I'm not asking for an exhaustive review, but give me something to help tailor things going forward for you and others. Was my pacing great but content felt hard to grasp? Was my content awesome but the pacing felt like a crawl? Did I make the common mistake of shooting for Mystery and ending up in Confusing? So storytellers, don't take constructive feedback as an attack.

It's certainly not an exhaustive list, but it's a few of the things that I had spring to mind first.

[Coin]

@Faceless said:

1. Have an ending in mind. It doesn't have to be the ending that you eventually come to, but it helps me in planning out a plot. A scenario like a scene in a movie. How did the Terminator end up in that foundry at the end of Terminator 2? Fill in the blanks to that ending and you've established some milestones for a story. None of these milestones may ever be used but you've at least given yourself the general outline of what you'd like the players to pursue.

2. Use the rules. The books have rules. Use the rules. Knowing the rules of the game both helps inspire some sense of confidence in the storyteller as someone who knows what they're doing, and further makes it possible to help teach those who don't have gold medals in Rules 101. Don't know a rule? Looks like an opportunity to learn something new. There isn't a rule? Make something up that makes sense on the fly. Don't bog down your story mid-scene to get an answer, come back to it later and find an answer from staff or someone else who may know where you can find the rule. Also don't be afraid to take advice from a player who may know a rule. On the flipside, don't be the rules lawyer player who disrupts a scene because you want to show how obnoxiously super-smart you are.

3. Get to know other players on your game. I don't mean that you have to tell Joe all about your wife, kids, cat named Sally, or your used condom collection. What I do mean is that the more of a visible presence you are on channels and joining in on the general banter, the more likely it is that people are going to feel comfortable approaching you later in pages to ask about the possibility of running a plot. They say one of the reasons the dog barks at the mailman so much is because he can see him, but not interact with him. He's an anomaly in the dog's territory. So don't be afraid to let the other players smell your hand. Some players may want to smell more though, so be careful.

4. Be willing to accept people outside your clique. It's great to run things for your friends, but MUSHing at this point is social networking. The more you reach out to or otherwise make your stories available to people you normally don't have frequent contact with, the more you network. Networking is good.

5. Run what you're going to have fun running. As has been mentioned previously in the lists of other posters, most players don't know what they want. So run what you're going to enjoy. If you build it, the players will come.

6. Give the players options. Fight, talk, run, drop a piano on the villain, whatever it is. Options let the players know that they have control over their destiny. Even if they walk their characters into a possible death, they made a choice.

7. For the participants out there: don't just offer up the canned "thanks, it was fun" at the end of a plot, event, scene, or whatever. If it was fun, please inform me in a @mail, pages, or right then why it was fun. What did you enjoy? If I get the "thanks, it was fun" and nothing else at the end of something I tend to believe that they're just being polite and something didn't suit their tastes. What could I work on? I'm not asking for an exhaustive review, but give me something to help tailor things going forward for you and others. Was my pacing great but content felt hard to grasp? Was my content awesome but the pacing felt like a crawl? Did I make the common mistake of shooting for Mystery and ending up in Confusing? So storytellers, don't take constructive feedback as an attack.

It's certainly not an exhaustive list, but it's a few of the things that I had spring to mind first.

This is pretty awesome and I am likely to steal it for Eldritch's stoytelling guidelines. Thanks.

[Arkandel]

@Faceless said:

7. For the participants out there: don't just offer up the canned "thanks, it was fun" at the end of a plot, event, scene, or whatever. If it was fun, please inform me in a @mail, pages, or right then why it was fun. What did you enjoy? If I get the "thanks, it was fun" and nothing else at the end of something I tend to believe that they're just being polite and something didn't suit their tastes. What could I work on?

I can't remember the last time I got any sort of feedback other than a "thanks" at the end of a scene.

[Misadventure]

Unless you tell people at the beginning what areas to critique, or ask with the same list at the end I doubt anyone will offer to criticize the effort you just did for them.

You didn't like or even ask questions about the critique I offered for your setup of Underworld Fight Club. Admittedly they were about logic and what players were going to do with the UFC, but it's my main experience with you.

[Arkandel]

@Misadventure I really don't remember anything about that at all. Can you elaborate? It's been too long, and I'm a goldfish.

[Misadventure]

Not really, though I might job your memory. You submitted an idea for the redesign of TRs underworld to have a city where there is an arena where the ghosts of warriors battled, and the prize was like ALL of the losers possessions and reputation.

Maybe it was another Geist Sphere Lead.

[Arkandel]

@Misadventure I had metaplot similar to that as Waterdeep for the Underworld but there was no city involved and that wasn't the prize. It sounds like some madness a different deranged mind might come up with - I suspect @Coin's.

Blame him for it (I do, as a rule).